I tried replying to one of the posts on your blog but it did not work.
Some people think that the two state solution will bring about peace. Most people logically know even after pulling out of Gaza, Gush Katif that it does not work. Syria won't commence talks ulness the Golan Heights are returned to them.
Egypt is doing nothing to prevent the ams smuggle into the Gaza Strip. I'm sure its medical supplies which are coming in!! Considering how much foreign aid Egpyt receives from USA. The UN keeps saying halt all building of settlements in the West Bank, how can you stop natural growth? Who actually listens let alones recognises the legitmacy of the UN anymore? They say go back to the pre 1967 borders, but then we could say the same for the British colonies to be returned to it's rightful owners, or giving the dutch back New York and calling it New Harlem once more. Or all the Spanish/Portguese colonies to be returned.
Why doesn't the World focus it's attention on Daruf? Shouldn't they be more concerned with that?
They (Palestinians, why not call them just Arabs) won't stop, and we all know it. They have no claim to this land, so how can anyone allow for any of it to be given away? I won't recognise a Palestinian State. If Arabs can live and some do under Israeli rule then why can't the rest of them? They talk about the land being stolen, then what about the 850,000 Jews from Arab countries whom were expelled? What about their land and possessions they left behind.
At the end of the day it comes down to simple, pure hatred. But I had a Muslim person tell me that Jews are people of the book?? Now they're blaming Israel for Arafat's death, whats next? What about Gilad Schalit?
No one is watching Iran at the moment, and as for US funding as Vox Populi goes on about, what about the funding the US gives to Pakistan? Most people know the States/Russia/China will invest money in a nation as most countries do with a clause it in it, what do they get in return? Military or strategic placement? And as for Vox, if Olmert was still in power I'm sure he'd be dismantling even more settlements. Then why if he is from the left, that more Yeshiva students are heading for combant IDF units, requesting elite units and why did the majority of Netanyahu's votes come from the 'settlements'. So what does that say? I call Vox one BIG bluff.
Hi Anonymous, welcome to the party.
ReplyDelete>Most people logically know even after pulling out of Gaza, Gush Katif that it does not work.
I don't think this is true. Most American Jews believe in the two-state solution, and Kadima, Labor and now Likud also seem to have endorsed that plan. Those are the three largest political parties in Israel. I don't know where you're getting your data from, but I'd like to see it, if you don't mind.
>Syria won't commence talks ulness the Golan Heights are returned to them.
So? No one is suggesting that the day the two state solution is ratified is the day that complete peace comes to the Middle East. Syria will probably not make peace unless the Golan Heights is returned to them. Seeing as previous Israeli governments have been willing to give the Golan Heights back in exchange for peace, this doesn't seem too hard. However, the Israeli-Palestinian issue is the biggest roadblock to peace in the region. Arab countries from Saudi Arabia to Morocco will not recognize Israel until it is solved. According to the Arab Peace Initiative, once the peace process is successfully completed, Saudi Arabia et al will recognize Israel and normalize relations with it. This is an outcome devoutly to be wished. But for that to happen, we need a two-state solution.
>Egypt is doing nothing to prevent the ams smuggle into the Gaza Strip. I'm sure its medical supplies which are coming in!! Considering how much foreign aid Egpyt receives from USA.
Egypt is actually doing quite a bit to stop arms from entering Gaza, but it's pretty hard. In fact, not a whole lot of anything is really going into Gaza, hence the humanitarian crisis there.
>The UN keeps saying halt all building of settlements in the West Bank, how can you stop natural growth?
It's pretty easy. You say "No more construction in disputed territory." There is no problem with this at all legally, or practically. Me and Michal have debated this ad nauseum. Read our comment thread here:
http://michalbasavraham.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-do-you-think-president-would-feel.html#comments
A good external link for a run down of the issue:
www.jewcy.com/post/unnatural_growth
and
www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=62&docid=3704
>Who actually listens let alones recognises the legitmacy of the UN anymore?
Well, firstly, it's not just the UN. Israel has been successfully ignoring the UN for decades. In addition to the UN, the United States, an entity Israel does respect, is also calling for a settlement freeze. Oh, and the rest of the world, too. Secondly, considering that Israel owes its founding to the UN, I'd say we shouldn't pooh-pooh it so completely.
>They say go back to the pre 1967 borders, but then we could say the same for the British colonies to be returned to it's rightful owners, or giving the dutch back New York and calling it New Harlem once more. Or all the Spanish/Portguese colonies to be returned.
I have debated this with Michal at length as well. Suffice it to say, either way you take this argument, it's not going to take you where you want to go. Please see our comment thread here:
http://michalbasavraham.blogspot.com/2009/07/arabs-are-squatters.html
In any case, I find the notion that you should be able to steal things, and not have to give them back, so long as you are the stronger party, pretty repugnant. I'd hate to think that our ge'ulah would be based on displacement.
>Why doesn't the World focus it's attention on Daruf? Shouldn't they be more concerned with that?
ReplyDeleteYes, and? When I crash my parents' car, and they get angry with me, are they wrong because they should be angry about Darfur? If what Israel is doing is destructive and wrong, then it doesn't really matter how much everyone cares about Darfur. It would be nice if everyone were robots that could give the exact proper value to everything, but they're not and they don't. Deal with it. Also, forgive me for saying this, but Israel is not Sudan, is it? It's a democracy - the only democracy in its region - and it possesses what it claims is the most moral army in the world. So we hold Israel to a higher standard. When oppressive autocracies murder their citizens - it's dog bites man. When a democracy does it to its inhabitants, it's more newsworthy.
>They (Palestinians, why not call them just Arabs) won't stop, and we all know it.
No, we don't know it. You are assuming your conclusion, which is no way to argue. The essential question here is whether, in exchange for a state of their own, the Palestinians can be induced to halt their Intifada. Just saying "we all know they won't" doesn't do anything, unless you have demonstrable proof.
>They have no claim to this land, so how can anyone allow for any of it to be given away?
Well, they do have a claim to this land. Their grandparents and great-grandparents were living there before massive Jewish immigration began at the end of the nineteenth century. Pray tell, what claim do you have to the land? One greater than theirs?
>I won't recognise a Palestinian State.
Then you are just as stubborn and recalcitrant as you believe the Palestinians to be. Perhaps it is you who is the obstacle to peace?
>If Arabs can live and some do under Israeli rule then why can't the rest of them?
The difference is, of course, that Israeli-Arabs are granted full citizenship with equal political rights in Israel (well, almost). The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza are not. They do not vote, and they do not qualify for government assistance or anything. Why would they be happy with such an arrangement? The Israeli government will never make them citizens, because then it will have to give 4 million Arabs the vote, thus ensuring the destruction of the Jewish state, democratically. So, what would you suggest the Palestinians do?
>They talk about the land being stolen, then what about the 850,000 Jews from Arab countries whom were expelled? What about their land and possessions they left behind.
OK. I encourage you to take that up with the countries that expelled them. But what does that have to do with the Palestinians? They had nothing to do with the expulsion, and they received none of the profits from it. They've been refugees for the last 40+ years.
>No one is watching Iran at the moment, and as for US funding as Vox Populi goes on about, what about the funding the US gives to Pakistan? Most people know the States/Russia/China will invest money in a nation as most countries do with a clause it in it, what do they get in return? Military or strategic placement?
ReplyDeleteFirstly, everyone is watching Iran at the moment. And, second, regarding Pakistan - well, what about Pakistan? The United States pays Pakistan quite a bit of money to fight the Taliban in Pakistan. It's that simple. As well, the United States wields quite a bit of influence inside Pakistan, as it does in Israel.
>And as for Vox, if Olmert was still in power I'm sure he'd be dismantling even more settlements. Then why if he is from the left, that more Yeshiva students are heading for combant IDF units, requesting elite units and why did the majority of Netanyahu's votes come from the 'settlements'. So what does that say?
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about here. What is your question? What does what say about what?
It is a halacka for the arabs to hate us. It says that Ishmael's children will have his hand against everyone and everyone will have their hand against him, and that Ishmael will fight the decendents of Yizack.
ReplyDeleteThere is no point in retionalizing this, it is part of life. The Zionists are anti religious and therefore many of them do not acknowledge the value of Eretz HaKodesh
The only solution to this is to have Jews performing more Torah Mizvos so that we may merit the geulah with an authentic Zionist state with Moshiach speedily in our days
Sorry about the spelling error, that was mean't to say Darfur.
ReplyDeleteLook poop, I'm entitled to my opinion and freedom of speech says that I'm entitled to post it on my blog.
ReplyDeleteTough cookies if you don't agree with me. Start your own blog.
I think we also need to recognise the members within the Orthodox community whom identify themselves as Zionists. Then there are those who aren't.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I can not speak for the members within the Jewish community who are anti religious. That I can not do.
Vox Populi,
ReplyDeleteMy only issue with you at the moment is that you keep mentioning American Jews, but what about all the other Jews living in the Diaspora as well?
What about their opinions? Do they not have a say?
>My only issue with you at the moment is that you keep mentioning American Jews, but what about all the other Jews living in the Diaspora as well? What about their opinions? Do they not have a say?
ReplyDeleteWhether the two-state solution is a good one? Sure. I just mention American and Israeli Jews because they form the two largest communities. If there are around 13-14 million Jews in the world, 10-11 million of them live in one of those two countries. Is there a particular country whose Jews mostly oppose the two-state solution? Otherwise, I would assume that they would similarly support the peace plan, especially since the United States and Israel are probably the most "pro-Israel" and anti-Palestinian countries there are. Do you say otherwise?
No, about the % of American Jews who voted for Obama and your constant emphasis of this notion.
ReplyDeleteI know that in comparision with the UK, Canada, South America, Europe etc where there are numerous Jewish communities to be found around the world.
Although their numbers don't come anywhere near those of the American Jewish community but the point I was trying to make was don't just assume that the American Jewish community has the only say, there are many more communities and/or individuals within in the diaspora who do also have a say.
I think there are members throughout the Diaspora who do indeed oppose the Two-State solution.. maybe you have not heard what they have to say.
Vox Populi,
ReplyDeleteHave you ever heard of the 'Palestine National Charter' before?
Thats something you might like to read before continuing on about why the Palestinians have a right to the land.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/PLO_Covenant.html
>Thats something you might like to read before continuing on about why the Palestinians have a right to the land.
ReplyDeleteWhat does this have to do with whether the Palestinians have a right to self-determination?
>I think there are members throughout the Diaspora who do indeed oppose the Two-State solution.. maybe you have not heard what they have to say.
ReplyDeleteOh, almost certainly. Plenty of them oppose it in the United States and Israel as well. As for the rest of the Diaspora, I, myself, am not American, and can tell you that many of my fellow Jews here also oppose it. But many support it. I don't think you'll find a majority of Jews elsewhere oppose it, rather than support it, although there is definitely a significant population that does.
>maybe you have not heard what they have to say.
In what sense? That I have not heard their arguments? I don't think an English Jews arguments would be any different?
Perhaps I should count their vote? Okay, but their numbers are statistically negligible in comparison to the size of the Jewish communities in America and Israel. I don't think England, South Africa et al will really help those in the nay column secure a majority.
>don't just assume that the American Jewish community has the only say, there are many more communities and/or individuals within in the diaspora who do also have a say.
Okay, but why would we defer to the minority?