I’ve thought about this topic a bit and I’ve been wanting to blog about it for a while. It’s a touchy and sensitive topic, too. As my Orthodox Jewish readers are surely aware, and many Jews not Orthodox and non-Jews are aware, the skirt is a hot topic of the question to be or not to be tznius.
In most Orthodox circles, the official tznius dress code is one that includes a skirt which covers the knees. Another accepted item in the dress code is that the elbows need to be covered. This is accomplished by wearing a “shell” or fancy undershirt under the t-shirt. Ok, it sounds easy enough, right?
Well, why, then, do I see women with their elbows covered but they wear short skirts? Even better, I often see married women with their hair carefully covered, their shell covering their elbows, then they wear a really short skirt-ok maybe just short by Orthodox standards. As a convert, I can’t even tell you how many women, who tell me I need to know what tznius is and that tznius is more than just how I dress. Meanwhile, some of these women aren’t dressed so modestly. I know one shadchan was telling me an example was that she wouldn’t call a guy hot, because the word “hot” is not modest. Meanwhile her skirt was above the knees.
I probed for some input on my Facebook page. The most intuitive comment was that it’s halacha for women to cover their knees, but, minchag trumps halacha, and the minhag is for skirts above the knee. Now, I pledged that I would uphold **ALL** minhagim. So, perhaps this is what I should tell someone the next time I’m nagged that my knee length skirt is too short is that I’m just following the minhag and apologize that my skirt is a little on the long side.
Of course, they will just decide that I’m not Jewish anymore. Whereas, with the FFB who shows half her thigh, they wouldn’t dare for fear she would fall off the derech. Actually, I could write a whole ‘nother post on just THAT topic alone.
There's no room in halacha for skirts above the knee, notwithstanding what people do. Officially the ankles shouldn't be revealed (even with stockings/leggings) either. People are just too lax...
ReplyDeleteSomething which is inconsistent with halacha itself cannot be considered minhag. One could say his "minhag" is to drive on Shabbos, but he is still violating halacha.
ReplyDeleteThis annoys me too. Especially when said above-the-knee skirt is worn with VERY high heels. What part of that is modest?
ReplyDeleteThere are a ton of things that born Jews do that we converts couldn't get away with for fear of losing or Jewishness. Sadly, it's not an equality thing. I don't see much we can do about it. Well, except blog. :)
ReplyDeleteAztec, let's not forget the slit up the back of the skirt in question. As you likely know, they not only wear skirts ABOVE the knee but it usually has a slit even further.
ReplyDeleteMost skirts are immodest. Religious women should be wearing pants. :-)
ReplyDeleteSo, it's your choice. You can concentrate on the hypocritical jews who won't give you the time of day and who clearly are not living according to Torah values, OR, you can find the few people who aren't hypocritical and befriend them, learn from them, look up to them, become part of their family. I am FFB and know that my friends from certain circles will NEVER accept me as 'real' because I didn't grow up where they did, and I'm not like them. There's always an underlying 'you're not good enough'. Well, I am, you are, and why focus on those who don't think that.
ReplyDeleteShouldn't we all just do what we know is right, and not worry about what anyone else is doing?
ReplyDeleteI'd give them more slack if I were you. Standards of modesty vary a lot by culture and time. Pretty close to no one today follows the standards of tzniut as described in the Gemarah for example Moreover, hypocrisy about standards has also been around for a long time. For an an example illustrating both of these together the section in Shabbat which seems to imply that it wasn't uncommon for a women to have her entire face covered except a single eye, which she then put make up on.
ReplyDeleteIt is also clear simply from looking at historical tshuvot that even within fairly small areas, standards of modesty could vary greatly.
The primary problem here is not the apparent lack of tzniut. The problem is the other problem you correctly observe: converts who dress the same way are treated poorly or assumed to be not really Jewish. The primary issue here is this double standard which exists across many different issues, not just tzniut.
Here is a pretty good article by Rav Willig which mentions the halacha vs. minhag debate regarding tzniyus standards: http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2010/parsha/rwil_bamidbar.html
ReplyDeleteIt's definitely not as simple as some people here are making it out to be - particularly with partial leg showing.
Joshua, can I give them slacks instead od slack? You know-to cover themselves? on a serious note, how about I give them slack when they give me slack?
ReplyDeleteSo Rav Willig says I can show half my thigh? This I gotta see... tomorrow when Im at school with the internet.
ReplyDeleteOk, Shades, I just read the articles. It says quite clearly that the skirt must go to the knees but, not any higher. Exposing half the thigh as my corp fi classmates does is out of the question.
ReplyDelete