I got a comment or Email last week that I should take a look at Emes V'Emunah because I inspired a post. I've been busy with school, but I had a chance to look at it last night. A rather arrogant commenter decided he wanted to put me in my place.
Chaim1 states, "I dont understand this post at all. With all due respect to geirim and BT's why do you think an FFB should consider you. Or better put it the other way round why dont you consider your own kind. Why must you 'move up'. It is true in history Moses, (zimri!), Joshua, Samson, Boaz, David, Solomon and i suppose many others preferred Geirim. R Z Hacohen discusses it. But they were usually princesses or something similar. Geirim and BT's are 'lower grade' they cannot marry a cohen for instance. I am not sure how a married cohen becomes a BT. Does he divorce his wife or are they all considered 'challolim'. There is a 'caste' system in judaism. Oh I forgot R Amram Blau. there is some version in the gemoro that everyone runs to marry a giyores. Of course the main example of 'onoas devorim' is telling a ger what he wants was. i suppose a BT would be the same."
I don't understand your comment at all. With all due respect, why should a Jewish from birth man who is single/divorced and over 35 refuse to consider anyone? Why don't you clarify what is my own kind? You mean another convert or should I marry a WASP? Because first off, there aren't that many converted men out there. Furthermore, most of them aren't former WASP converts between the ages of 35 to 45. I'll have you know that I am a descendant of Betsy Ross. Also, it really wasn't that long ago in history that WASPs were automatically considered superior to Jews. So, why don't you explain to me how I would be moving up, simply by marrying someone who's parents raised them religious and they are Jewish. I see you are an FFB by the fact that you can't write a paragraph without making errors. I'll clue you in: you may not start a sentence with if, and, or but. You started one with but. 'challolim' should be followed by a question mark and not a period. Furthermore, "what he wants was"? I think you mean "what he once was."
Finally, who the hell said I am only open to an FFB? I am totally open to a BT. Also, I'm single never married and I would consider divorced with a kid in tow. However, I think it's crazy that the parents of and men over 35 should be so picky. They are worried about, "what people would say" if they married a convert or BT. They don't bother to consider that people would talk about it and then it would pass. Instead, they stay single and people talk about, "nebach, he's 38 and never married..." and THAT isn't going blow over like marrying a girl who isn't an FFB Bais Yaakov girl.
I would say that if you are good enough for a certain group perhaps that certain group is not good enough for you. But if I would say that before it is meant to be heard perhaps it would cause more pain than good. But still it seems to me that in my experience with FFB I have not found anything that indicates any type of higher being at all. But there are great books in Judaism that are impossible to discover and understand without the whole yeshiva experience-- (Eg the Arizal Isaac luria and the Mishna and Rambam). But there are no higher beings walking around nowadays in OJ. A few years ago there was reb shmuel berenbaum at the Mir but he is gone now.
ReplyDeletehttp://xkcd.com/386/
ReplyDeleteSorry Michal, yes there are some disgusting nutcases out there. The hope is that there aren't that many, and that they're not in positions of power. And that our educational system isn't encouraging more of them.
Can we hear more about your life as an actress and/or soldier, btw? (Have you gone to any of these by-women-for-women Jewish productions?) Might be more interesting and less depressing than more on how geirim get kicked to the gutter.
I love that rejoinder! :-] And I think it's right on target.
ReplyDeleteI read those comments on Haemtza; I think "Chaim1" is a world-class [redacted].
Yes, well, you know, Chaim is an FFB raised being told that he was something special whilst being denied a suitable education that would afford him the ability to write a grammatically correct paragraph insulting a former Shiksa such as myself. Instead, he leaves me many openings to taunt his improper English. I enjoying pointing out where he has fallen short in English due to his FFB education. :-)
ReplyDeletewell i suppose i should better reply here to you.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to test it to see if it was moderated.
ReplyDeleteIt seems it is. My replies on 'emes' are usually deleted. Not many of my posts 'get through'. That makes things very difficult for me. All i can say at the moment is that i am FFB and you misunderstood my post. I hope to clarify it to you here.
Thanks for posting.
ReplyDeleteI went to a co-ed school which was Jewish but not really frum. I also went to university for three years so I have been with non-Jewish men and women in my life. You will have to make up your mind if you are really interested in what I have to say. I dont mind debating with you, I am never short of an answer and if I think you are right I will be the first to say so. I have just seen your blog and it will take me a long time to read it all through to find out all about you. My post was a general post not referring to someone specific like you. If you read my further posts there you will see that Harry rejected them. It makes things very difficult for me as I have said, if I am not allowed to explain myself. I hope this wont happen here even if you may not like what I have to say.
You may comment. My rules: no below the belt insults. No Hebrew without translations. I want references or something to back it up with your arguments. If you take things out of context, don't you worry your pretty little head off, I have readers who will catch it.
ReplyDeleteBTW, Blogger's been acting up most of today so, if it keeps up, I'm not fighting it. I will come back tomorrow on my lunch. I really need to be doing school work, anyway.
Dear Chaim and Michal,
ReplyDeletePlease explain why a Kohen cannot marry a BT. A BT (unless Reform and relying on laws of patrilineal descent) is halachically born Jewish and, unless she has a divorce or two under her belt (or some other improper relationship) is certainly free to marry a Kohen. Now many Kohanim consider themselves "too good" for BTs, but that's snobbery, not halacha talking.
Oh, Aztec Queen, check your Email.
ReplyDeleteIn many cases, people become BT when they are older... 25, 30, 35... so, they are then usually divorced or otherwise disqualified. Someone who becomes BT before 25, especially in their teens, will likely be eligible. To the surprise of frummies, not everyone who is something other than a frum Jew is out there losing their virginity at 12. I was 19 and I have many non-Jewish friends who were older than I was.
ReplyDeleteSo you have explained why a Kohen cannot marry a BT. And if you read my posts on emes you will see I asked how a Kohen can become a BT. Does he divorce his wife or are they all 'chalolim' that means profaned ones. I as usual recieved no reply from those kiruv professionals. I am against kiruv as I have repeatedly wrote. They do more harm than good. According to Jewish law if one touches something 'tomai' one also becomes unclean but not if it is clean. The reason is, its easier to become unclean than clean. It is more likely these kiruv professionals going OTD than the opposite.
ReplyDeleteComing back to geirus. I did mention in my post there a whole list of the greatest Jewish people who married geirim. But I added that usually they were daughters of kings. I also mentioned a gemoro which says people should run to marry a giyorus. At least one version of it. I also asked there why a person becomes a ger. There wasn't a real reply except that usually there father was Jewish. I dont suppose that is your reason. It will take quite a few posts for me to explain everything and you will have to have patience. I hope my mention of your blog has brought you more viewers.
http://www.michaltastik.com/search/label/my%20conversion%20story
ReplyDeleteThat link should get you to my story which you can also get by clicking on the label, "my conversion story" on the right hand side.
Let's just clarify. What you stated that was most offensive was, "With all due respect to geirim and BT's why do you think an FFB should consider you. Or better put it the other way round why dont you consider your own kind. "
Again, it is ridiculous when a 35 year old man who has never been married and his mommy say he shouldn't marry a gyoress. They always argue that they are worried that the non-Jewish grandparents will pollute the grandkids. Well, :-P my parents are dead, so you can't use that arguement with me.
Nuuuuuuu..... explain to me why an FFB shouldn't consider me?
ReplyDeleteok. I wasn’t referring to a 35 year old man. I was referring to someone younger. I have seen that you have come up the 'catholic route'. At least you are honest why you converted. But many questions remain. You seem to be 'older'. Now why would a man be 35, an orthodox one and still single? Would you really want him, I doubt it. If he has been married, he most likely has children who have to get married. I am sure you know all this much better than I do. Then again you have come up the 'intellectual route'. Jewish men on the whole and i mean FFB ones can’t take 'clever women'. I am personally against the kind of Jewish women’s education that is taught but you must have realised that they are not taught from the sources, usually by failed rabbis, and cannot question anything. I have read in the meantime some of your early posts about the sidrot and most of them although they make entertaining reading are not the orthodox version. If you read more of my posts elsewhere or on my blog you will see that the FFB who claim to 'learn' dont do that at all. What I mean is that they cannot learn even if they spend their time studying. You would quickly become very disillusioned with them. It wouldn’t take you long to work that out. I have challenged now on 'emes' for someone to give me a formula of how to make a succa, no one has yet replied. I am sure you could do it though.
ReplyDeleteChaim1, it's hard to tell if you're trying to insult Michal, FFBs, geirim, BTs, Orthodox men, Orthodox Jews or are just generally malcontent and antisocial.
ReplyDeleteThat's exactly why I was figuring on a BT or a really modern guy who got married late and divorced and thus has a kid or two that aren't so old it's freaky.... maybe a widow....
ReplyDeleteTo say I came up Catholic is really false. I was religious as a Protestant and other being chrissened Catholic as a baby and my mother being buried Catholic, I really wasn't Catholic. I did actually do my first confession. The only reason why was that my sister's best friend *HAD* to take religion and so my sister wanted to take and thus I wanted to take. My mother had no intention of enrolling us. I dropped out after that first year which means Catholics wouldn't consider me Catholic. I didn't do first communion or get confirmed. The reiligious college I went to was Methodist. I also visited Bob Jones, an ultra right wing school with an Orthodox style dress code and demerits. They did allow elbows to show, though, but they were strict on the hemline unlike these WHORE tho-dox types we have running around in super tight jean skirts well above the knee like you see around Avenue J.
As for how to make a Sukkah... no problem, get some boards or blankets or something. Put me in charge and I instruct some Jewish guys... More like Israelis and less like Accountants :-)
The easiest thing is to use say a fenced in yard, Put a tall pieces of wood and tie it or something to the fence and then you need wood across the top and then fill in with schach, you know leaves or branches or whatever...
Of course the EASIEST formula is: buy Sukkah tent for outrageously high price, pup up the frame, add the tent thingy and roll the included bamboo roof over the top. :-)
Now, there's a guy on Frumster who complains in the bulletin board that the good women his age are taken. He is about 38. He says his mother won't let him date a convert and he blames the problem on the women his age being career women. While that has some truth to it, he has to bend. I know there's some truth to this because I was put into a singles thing last Sukkos and all the other single women did was gab. They told this story and that story of their past dates and how this guy didn't have a car and they'd roll their eyes and this one did this.... roll eyes... and I should get a car and she lives in her car, easy for her to say, she has a good paying job. They all got to live at home until they had a career and finished school, parents still alive. Man, I wish I had such an easy life. People like that act like I'm lazy... alright, get that PhD with NO support system from 18 years old on. I'll bet they couldn't.
ReplyDelete>"He is about 38. He says his mother won't let him date a convert and...."
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry -- he's 38(!) and "his mother" "won't let" him date somebody?! Who the heck are these losers?!!!
You didnt read my post on emes. I also know how to make a succa. I have made many in my time. Did you really think that that was my question. Do you think i am dumb. Or do you think all FFB are. You have a condescending attitude to men. This shows through on all your posts. This is not considered a Jewish attitude however true it may be. In orthodox Jewish practice there is no equality of the sexes. The man is supreme. The woman is there to help him achieve his perfection not hers.
ReplyDeleteWhen i said catholic i didnt mean it literally. I meant you came from wanting more meaning in your life. More spirituality. I wrote this on emes as well. After reading more about you, I may be mistaken, it seems you were looking for truth, which is not exactly the same.
You found it in Judaism and settled for the easiest type of it.
About your shidduch prospects, considering your army background I would have thought an israeli would be more your type.
You write he has to bend. Did it ever occur to you that you may also have to. It is no use looking at others, who are better off, one has to make the most of the life one has. And as you write they are also still single, it hasnt helped them.
Dear Chaim1,
ReplyDeleteI know PLENTY of men of who are Orthodox, single (never married, although there are also quite a few divorced) and WELL over 35. The problem is that the NY singles community is huge, men think they have the rest of their lives to play around, and that they are still in the glory days of their 20s, when eligible women were waiting around every corner.
(Oh, and Michal, I did check.)
That same Frumster guy Michal speaks of is something else. He's not a bad looking guy and has an OK career (not wealthy, but certainly self supporting) but he's EXTREMELY critical. Over the years, he's posted on Frumster that he's rejected various women that were in his words "sloppy and slovenly" because they wore a denim skirt on a date, wore glasses (he prefers contacts or LASIK, as he has had), or weren't fresh looking after 3 hour bus ride from Baltimore or an after-work meetup. He justifies this as he feels he must be attracted to his spouse, which is fair, but his idea of perfection far fetched. Yet he is upset that when he is introduced to a high caliber attractive, successful woman, such would prefer a more outgoing man.
ReplyDeleteHe can dish it out but can't take it. Really he could vary easily get married to a very nice person if he was more reasonable. I wish I could say he's an exception to the rule, but I'm finding more and more over 35 year old ffb men from NYC that fit this profile. They do grow up a bit in their late 40s and 50s when all of a sudden they want to hurry and start families with MUCH younger women, even if the women aren't so perfect as long as they are fertile.
Chaim,
ReplyDeleteNope, didn't read it. I'm crazy busy with school. I don't think you are dumb. I'm too busy to go running around to find out what you mean. I assumed you thought *I* didn't know how to make a Sukkah. I don't have a condescending attitude towards men. However, I don't appreciate the condescending attitude that men like you have towards women. The man is not supreme. Hashem made woman out of the man's rib... you know, his SIDE, not his foot so that she should step on woman and not the head so that we would rule over man.
I don't see how you say I settled for the easiest type of Judaism. I'm Orthodox, not Reform.
Why would I be right for an Israeli because I was in the Army? My Army service was like going camping to an Israeli and the US Army is different. That sounds to me as dumb as the people who set up a guy and a girl because they sneezed in the same direction or something stupid like that. Besides, the ones in the states are all fat and disgusting.
It has a occured to me that I have to bend. I went from looking for a guy up to 3 years older to being open to 10 years older. My requirement of looks is that I don't want to hurl when I look at him. That includes chubby men (but not rotund), men with gray hair, and balding men. You should hear the FFB girls my age. They want a guy who makes more than they do when they make 6 figures. He has to take them to Broadway plays and have a car and so on. Also, see what another commenter said after you wrote this. The guy wants this that and the other thing when it comes to women. If I didn't require Kosher and Shabbos, I could do very well by men.
Hey, should I go off the derech so I can marry a decent guy?