I'm pasting in an exchange from the comments that took place from my cell phone to someone identifying themself as, "anonymous."
Anonymous said...
my response to you as seen on aish
What is a Jewish woman
Becoming a giyores is more than just keeping the mitsvot. Jewish people are different. Maybe not physically although the gemoro says their teeth are. They are 'rachmanim' kind, shameful, and do chesed. And I would add for women more than men. In eishes chayil, she is happy that her husband not herself sits at the head of the people. Reading some blogs one is resigned to the fact that their giyur proccess has not taught them that. Unless they are prepared to work on these traits Jewish men will not come running.
November 25, 2010 10:19 AM
Michaltastik said...
the Jewish people are shameful.
yes they are which is a violation of the Torah.
Btw, why dont u tell me where sexism is endorsed in the pentateuch, i havent run across it.
November 25, 2010 11:08 AM
Anonymous said...
i quoted you eishes chayil maybe you think its only just a song sung on friday night but it happens to be in the tnach in mishlei. Sexism is embodied in the bible being the only reason for womans creation. Because the man cant be without her. No other reason is given. Unlike animals where both sexes were created together, women came as an afterthought. Shameful perhaps is the wrong word and you understood it out of context. 'bayshonim' is the hebrew word. It means not being brash.
November 25, 2010 11:43 AM
Michaltastik said...
most jews are brash.
November 25, 2010 4:07 PM
So, "Anonymous" turned out to be none other than CHAIM1
I hate to break it to you, but Jewish people are not more kind than non-Jews. I would venture to say they are less kind. "And I would add for women more than men." You would add WHAT? Construct a proper sentence if you want to argue with educated people. "In eishes chayil, she is happy that her husband not herself sits at the head of the people." It doesn't say that. I just checked. What I did find was that it said to give this woman credit for her merits. I stand by what I said before. The Torah doesn't support this idea of dumb wives who do nothing but pop out babies and tell her husband he's wonderful. Actually, the husband of the eyshes chayil should be telling her how wonderful she is.
chaim1 again
ReplyDeleteyou had better check it out again. 'bshivto im ziknei orez'. translates to what I said. Of course one should give a mere woman her due praise. But youre right the woman does not have to say to her husband he's wonderful. He doesnt have to be told continuously like the woman. You have it all correct. The Torah does support the idea of dumb wives who work and have babies. Read the eishes chayil again. The Torah does not want woman to learn it. These kiruv companies who teach woman are all going against the Torah. These 'brash' woman and there are plenty are again not in keeping with Jewish standards. If you cant understand my posts in the English I have written, however non standard there must be something wrong somewhere. This is not an essay to be marked by a professor but a post which I write as though I speak. I noticed another post of yours on emmes. My name there is AF and my posts there are continuously deleted. Emmes is an MO site which has nothing really to do with the Jewish religion, and when they hear the authentic one they delete it instead of debating a point. Dont believe a thing you read there. No, Jews are not allowed to steal whatever they write there and however they dress it up. And all the other things they find a heter for. That is part of MO a kind of reform Judaism except its not called that. You as a giyores should go for the real thing and not the alternative.
I find Yeshivish and Chasidic women to be less modest than modern ones. Wearing high heels and tznuis-slutty clothes, excessive and brightly colored make up as the "yeshivish" FFB women do draws attention to themselves. My non-Jewish friends are always asking me why women who are supposed to be religious look like prostitutes. Furthermore, since modesty is about not drawing attention to oneself, then chasidic women with their bright white turbans are also guilty. You spot that from miles away.
ReplyDeleteWhat I really want to know, since YOU argue that modern orthodoxy is not Judaism, please make Torah citations and not just accusations from the hip. I expect them from the Torah, not the Talmud. The talmud is a vareity of rabbis giving their opinion and for whatever rabbi opinion you give me, another rabbi in the Talmud would argue with it. Also, I'm dying to know, where is there a Torah comandment to dress like a penguin. After all, this is a hard and fast rule in what you call "authentic" Judaism.
Something I've come to realize is that most of what they say are Jewish ways or whatever are things the rabbis added in. The Torah says not to add nor take away. They try to pass it all off as interpretation. As recent as 50 years ago, the "Jewish Requirement" to wear black and white wasn't practiced. The children of the MO are becoming Yeshivish, not the other way around. This is out of the mouthes of people in their 70's straight to my ear!
Incidentally, according to the artscroll translation the line you give says that the woman's husband sits with the elders in the land in the fine clothing she made him. No where in the translation does it say that she's happy he is there and not her. What I see is that the wife is rich (has servants), doesn't get enough sleep, but she has a striking independance that women are not given in a Boro Park type world. It says brings food from afar. AFAR! The women in your world aren't allowed to leave the house by themselves, usually. They aren't allowed to drive and even accompanied they barely leave their block.
ReplyDeleteMy wife drives and runs a business all by herself, imports from afar, and has done almost since we married. We have never lived off others or the state often going without. That is not MY world you are talking about. I happen to be Jewish.
ReplyDeleteMy married daughter also drives and has been to university like me,has not been to seminary which I dont believe in and works for her living.
I dont know whom you consider a role model for a 'Jewish' woman. I cant tell you who I am, but I can tell you whom I consider a role model.
Rav Salomon's wife from Lakewood. She learnt in a co-ed Jewish school till eleven and then went to a non-Jewish high school which needed an entrance examination which of course she passed.
You should meet her and then you will see what a real Jewish educated woman looks like.
We dont go after the Torah or the talmud we conform to the shulchan oruch. The Torah can be understood in many different ways, the same with the talmud.
The MO dont keep the shulchan oruch especially the laws of niddah which you as girl would be unfamiliar with.
I don't get one thing:
ReplyDeletewhy does a phrase in Mishley, which according to the Talmud even refers to the Torah, not to a real woman, (Yalkut Shimoni Remez TATKASA"D) have anything to do with dating, shiduching, expectations and converts???
even if you want to discuss Tznius standards, there are way better places that those are mentioned.
I'm assuming that response from Anonymous was Chaim1.
ReplyDeleteYou assume you know me and things about me that you don't know, yet you make the same accusation when extrapolate from your posts what kind of Jew you are. You are the one who says you are not MO and MO Jews are not real Jews. You criticize me over and over again saying that I don't know this and that about being a Jewish woman. How do you know what I know? From now on, you better cite with examples from my blog or I'm not approving your comments with wild accusations.
Furthermore, I think a huge number MO women would be furious that you dare to claim they don't go to the mikvah. You have no basis whatsoever for such a statement. There may be MO women who don't go, just as there may be yeshivish and chasidic women who don't go, but there is no endorsement from MO rabbis for women not to go. Finally, I am familiar with the laws of niddah. Apparently, you are unaware that we are required to learn them for conversion, even though FFB women do not know them. As a side note, FFB women refuse to keep them because they don't like them.
Yes it was, you assume correctly.
ReplyDeleteIf youre not going to print my 'wild accusations' theres no point in making them.
I suppose you have been to mikva being a ger with 3 rabbis cross examining, interrogating and gawking at you.
A woman with makeup and painted nails hands and feet like the MO ones may be going to mikva but its not valid at all. You wasted your time learning the wrong things for conversion. You should have come to me! And anyway there is more to the laws of nidda than going to mikva.
You seem to FAIL TO REALIZE that women can take these things off and put them back on. There is make up remover and nail polish remover in the ready rooms at the women's mikvahs. The mikvah lady inspects your hands and face and everything to make sure all the make up is off and you don't have any nail polish on. There is a "beauty bar" for women to put all that stuff back on before they leave the building.
ReplyDeleteYes, I know the rest of the laws, but somehow it didn't seem tzanuah to discuss checking cloths with you, especially since we both know where they go.
Come to you? Are you serious? Who are you that I should come to you? You are not prepared to answer that. I think we're done here.
I've seen more make-up, higher heels, and fancier shaitels on the chasidic women in Boro Park than the so-called "MO" women in Marine Park.
ReplyDeleteI'm also sure that you could teach a course on taharas mishpacha. It's not like you spent two years studying cholent recipes.
BTW, if Chaim1 is so machmir about everything, why is he reading a woman's blog on the Internet? I thought that the Mishna said that men should not talk excessively to women, especilly who are not their wives.
Aztec,
ReplyDeleteI studied everything: Shabbos, kashrus.. ect. I work in the community and I have told people that items were traifed up by accident and watch them wave their hand whatever. People would eat in their house in a second and not bat an eye. I saw something online where someone was eating at the home of a women without a sheitl and they said, "it's what's in her head, not on it." People eat food from strangers on the basis of the schmata on her head. I saw a woman get cake from a woman she didn't know after moving onto a new block. I said, "you don't know her, how do you know it's ok to eat her food?"
This Chaim bashes the MO, but then if you point out the yeshivish and chasidim do something worse, he says, "I'm not chadisic" or "I'm not yeshivish" I asked, "then what the stuffing are you?" and I still haven't gotten an answer. Also that comment about "you should have come to me!" for my Jewish training sounds shady. I can only imagine given scandels like Tropper's what he could possibly mean.
You complain about my English. Your 'scandels' are no better. And I dont bash just the MO, I bash the lot. "Especilly" your friend. They all have their faults and none keep authentic Judaism. I would add there isnt a single mitsva they keep properly. If you read my posts on emmes or hirhurim for example, I write not one kesuba is kosher today.
ReplyDeleteFor the simple reason no one knows (apart from me and very few others) what is written there.
Your problem is that you have been led to believe that Jewish people keep the Torah or the shulchan oruch, well let me inform you they dont. To be a rabbi today, its more important to know the English language well. You seem to think one has to be pigeon holed, and belong to some cult, well I dont.
It may sound 'shady' and you dont have to imagine what I meant I can tell you. I meant that to get the real Judaism you would have had to come to me. I challenge you, go to your 'trainer' and ask him what a kesuba is and whats written there. Its like the story of a person buying a lamborghini. He went to the orthodox rabbi and asked if it needs a mezuza. He asked him what this lamb.. is. He went to the reform and he started explaining what the lamb... is and he replied I know all that but what the heck is a mezuza.
Has the gong gone and is the second round finished?
You do to bash the MO. You just did. Which FRIEND of mine is that? Since when do YOU know my friends?
ReplyDelete" I write not one kesuba is kosher today.
For the simple reason no one knows (apart from me and very few others) what is written there."
OMG! Are you serious? I'm eating are you trying to make me choke on my food by LAUGHING at you? Yes, yes, I'm certain NO ONE, but some guy with a nasty attitude on the internet and one or two other people know what the Kesuba says. The people who translate it, they are alll incompetant. I mean Aramaic is only extremely similar to Hebrew...
WOW!! You do realize that any sane person reading your stuff online would wonder why your LOR hasn't called the looney bin and had you locked up. You realllllly sound nuts.
Wow, I didn't know that chaim1 was the Gaonim, Tannaim, Achronim, Rishonim, Avos, Moshe Rabbeinu, Gadol Hador and HKBH all rolled into one. Also the Rema and Rabbi Caro. Unless he possesses all of these character traits, who is he to state what is authentic Judaism and what isn't?
ReplyDeleteI may not know much about Hashem, but I do know that I am not Hashem. And, I'm pretty sure Chaim1 isn't either.
Michal,
ReplyDeleteThis guy is not just looney....he's ill. The entire discussion has dragged on for two rounds too long. You and every other sane jew here knows everything he's said is out-and-out nuts.
He gave you the best advice he could from other bloggers: they delete his comments immediately. Do so and after awhile, he'll haunt some other place.
Chaim1, Please read Daniel's comment above. I have finals coming up and I am no longr going to sit and argue with you. I have differentiation to study!
ReplyDeleteAztec, OMG! This joker actually said you can't spell! How would HE know? HE can't spell. I'm deleting the comment.
Chaim1, I am not approving anymore of your posts.
ReplyDeleteThank goodness. No point in giving airtime and headspace to losers like him.
ReplyDeletenow you have another admirer wingate. youre spoiled for choice!
ReplyDeleteWhy dont they want you!
How many do you need?
nuts nuts nuts
your chimp friends are obsessed with them like yourself.
losers is that what you and they call me?
all of you being a geirim and not having found your place in Jewish circles i wouldnt call you winners.
I do post on many other places, and will keep you in touch. Look out for my posts there.
Chaim1 -- go take grade-school level grammar lessons before trying to insult people with your messy, puerile "writing".
ReplyDelete>>"...not having found your place in Jewish circles..."
This coming from the kook who proclaims "not one kesuba is kosher today" because only "me and very few others" know what is written there?! Go hang out with your precious "very few others" in the psyc ward.
>>"I do post on many other places, and will keep you in touch. Look out for my posts there."
But wait a sec: if folks here are such losers, why would you even want to bother???
In any event, please -- save your electrons. We'll be fine.
HAHAH, Wingate, you should see what I deleted. He said I should marry the men who comment on the blog. I thought that he sounds like a child on the playground. Also, he seems to think Aztec is a gyoress. NOPE!!
ReplyDeleteYou know, I really think some serious good can come out of this.
ReplyDeleteThis guy is really representative of many of the seeming kooks that you've encountered in all-too-frequent numbers.
There is great strength in hitting "Delete" and moving on with your head held high. Maybe you won't even need to seclude yourself as much anymore.
There are plenty of sane Jews out here with their heads screwed on straight. Those who understand boundaries, and who know how to be m'karev a guest, rather than push them away.
I hope you start meeting more of them soon.
Is that supposed to insult me? I would love to be able to stand in the place of someone like Rus! She was only the ancestor of our entire line of kings! Unfortunately, I can only trace my maternal lineage back to Aaron HaKohen, and some Lithuanian rabbis.
ReplyDeleteTry again.