I must say it. What really narks the hell out of me about this Tropper thing is the way people are coming to his defense. Now, that post that I put up from a certain Yeshivish man I didn't name. I was at this Yeshivish person's Shabbos table shortly after my conversion and the topic was brought up about conversion. The conversation was quickly turned to how, "if they do this and that...." and essentially supporting the idea that a conversion can be revoked. Someone else at the table said, "but, what if they were observant the whole time?" No problem! We just dunk them again.
This is, of course, highly unfair and highly against halachah. The reason why converts are upset even if they are observant is that we shouldn't have to live in fear. What if someone decides they don't like my rabbi down the line? Will I be questioned?
Furthermore, this Yeshivish man is the same one who cast his doubt on converts but, judged favorably Mr. Tropper that perhaps he didn't do it. Ok, that might be fair... but, perhaps the convert didn't do anything wrong.
http://michalbasavraham.blogspot.com/2009/12/yeshivish-mans-reaction-to-tropper.html
See, when they feel it's one of their own..... they want to be machmir to judge favorably. However, since converts are forever viewed as outsiders, they decide it is mutar to stick it to us.
Dude, it's not my fault Hashem put my neshama into a goyisha body.
I feel that it is absolutely false that geirim are forever viewed as outsiders. Perhaps it depends on the community in which you live, but I wouldn't make that some sweeping generalization, and there are many places where geirim are taken in, helped every step of the way, and have tons of families who tend to their every need (meals during the week, arba minim for Sukkos, buying them tefillin, inviting them to all family simchos, etc.) like they were part of their own family.
ReplyDeleteWell, I guess it's just me they hate.
ReplyDeleteThe problem isn't personal. If they are really frum, then they are required to follow halacha. If halacha requires them to judge tropper favorably they must do so. If not, they must not!
ReplyDeleteIf halacha requires them to "re-convert" anyone tropper converted (which as from what i can tell is no one, since he didn't convert anyone), then they must. If not, they must not!
Basically, I don't think the comparison is good one. They are two completely unrelated things.
I don't know why you feel people hate you for being a convert. When I was growing up frum, we fell all over ourselves to help anyone who was converted or was returning to Judaism.
If you want a support group...
The point is that if you're going to judge Tropper favorably, then you should judge a convert favorably, too.
ReplyDeleteYou know, I think some of the people that bug me think they are helping me. However, the things people have done with me, they are not helping me. Maybe I'm just the most unlucky one.
If you are talking about a frum person judging someone (born jewish or a convert) favorably when Halacha says to, of course you correct. But if you are talking about saying a conversion is kosher when it isn't, of course you are not correct.
ReplyDeleteIf you really feel that they are trying to help you, even if they are bugging you, why would you describe it as "I guess it's just me they hate"?
They THINK they are trying to help me. They are not trying to help me... that's some people. Some other people are the ones who, as described above having me for Shabbos and then make nasty comments about converts. There is a difference between a rabbi being in situation of decided if a conversion is kosher or not (for example, rabbi is asked to perform a wedding) and the general public or even rabbis to tell converts things like, "we're watching you to make sure you're a good convert because we know how all these converts lie when they are in the process." Mind you, these are the people who rooted for my conversion while I was in the process. What happened? I come to find out they ended up speaking with EJF. No convert enjoys sitting at a Shabbos table full of their former friends less than a month post conversion and to be picked on by the whole table.
ReplyDeleteTell me why, this can hit the news about Tropper and they can dismiss it that he didnt' do it (judging favorably) but, they can sit there and accuse me when I practically still have Mikvah water on me? A whole table full of them ganging up on me like that?
This why I don't like Yeshivish and Chareidi people anymore. They all seem to hate converts. They secretly talk about how they think we are all converting for marriage. You talk about how great the community is to converts. Well, I don't see it, personally. I work in the community and that's enough for me. I am not going to be invited by people to their house so they can sit there and pick on me.
The people that I said I think they THINK they are trying to help me are the people who had me over and spent Shabbos talking to me about how I need to try harder to find a shidduch and what do I do? Do I call the shadchans and bug them? Well, no, actually because the shadchans are downright nasty, really verbally abusive to converts.
The examples that I pointed out in my previous comment, regarding those who treat geirim like family, are in the Chasidish community, and Chasidish is Chareidi. Perhaps the reality of living in a more extreme environment helps geirim in the Chasidish community to be automatically trusted, as they are assumed to clearly be serious if they are in such a place.
ReplyDeleteYou mention buying tefillin for the convert... So, MALES... We know how the chasidim feel about women. They don't even let them into the sukkah.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me? This was an example of something that one might by for someone who was recently converted. I used the example because I am a male and it was what was most readily in my mind.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Sukkos, how dare you assert things like this? This is incredibly offensive and a blatant lie! I didn't eat in a single Sukkah this year, or any year, that didn't also have women in them. If you are going to make these assertions, then you need to back it up with something real. Otherwise, when you tell lies about the lifestyle and community in which I live, I know that they are lies.
This is what my sources in Boro Park have told me.
ReplyDeleteHey, curmudge, where are you?
ReplyDeleteYour sources in Boro Park? Anonymous people who make false statements and speak loshon hora about other Jews? Why don't you try visiting and seeing things for yourself first hand instead of listening to what biased sources spout out to you?
ReplyDeleteNo one in Boro Park is offering to host me on a Shabbos or Yontiff.
ReplyDeleteI think that rather than coming to such conclusions based on a few incidents or not that it would be entirely unfair to make certain assumptions about various individuals within the Orthodox community based on a few negative encounters some people have had.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, yes some converts are not treated fairly and it saddens me that this does happen. But there are many communities that do welcome converts with open arms.
It's just a matter of finding the right community that will accept you and that you feel comfortable being apart of.
Yes, I love the way people expect me to over and over have the hassle and expense of a move because the Jews don't want to follow a part of the Torah.
ReplyDeleteYou say:
ReplyDeleteWell, no, actually because the shadchans are downright nasty, really verbally abusive to converts.
Actually the shadchans that are downright nasty, really verbally abusive are like that to everyone, not just converts. But they do get an extra aveira by treating converts that way.
Don't mix up Jews and Judaism. Just because people make stupid comments, rabbis included, they are, after all still human.
ReplyDeleteI have heard this many times over and over again, why do people say this and say that..
How about someone living in a modern orthodox community and telling the potential convert that they are way to strict and don't have to adhere to such chumros.
People in general are not very careful even if it says so many times to v'ahavta es ha ger to love the convert.
Not everyone has tact. There is also the 614th commandment that people should be taught: Don't be stupid!