I just read this article where they discuss possibly letting gays into the Army openly. Actually, they are currently allowed in the Army but, they are supposed to keep their sexuality private, or at least not flaunt it. Well, the current policy is best.
If we were to have those openly gay in the Army, they would likely get beat up. When I was in AIT (Advanced Individualized Training) two guys got caught being amorous in the barracks. Of course, I didn't see it. However, we all heard about it. I was actually at the Drill Sergeant's when one of the guys was speaking to the drill sergeant. He couldn't wait to get out of there. He was scared for his safety. They did an emergency leave for him just after midnight the night it happened. They did that so he wouldn't loose a day of leave by leaving at 10 or 11pm. Then they prepared discharge papers and he came back from leave only to be discharged, at least this is how I understand it. Actually, I think there are more gay or bi-sexual men out there than we know about. In some classic societities, I believe it was the vogue. Now, it is in transition from being shameful to vogue once again. At least that is how it seems to me.
Keeping mind that the torah does not say there's anything wrong with men having homosexual feelings, but rather talks about actions...
ReplyDeleteWhen a society says that something is acceptable, or good, more people start doing it. It can also create confusion, since people are much more ready to question their own orientation...
In other words, I agree with your conclusions, and I'm not happy about it.
Well, this isn't really a "Torah" thing, remember we have separation of Church and state. At this point, they are allowed to be in but, you know, they can't get caught in the barracks making sweet love to a co-soldier. I think I would have felt uncomfortable if I had known someone was a lesbian. In the Army, you take showers with everyone in the same place like gym showers at a public high school.
ReplyDeleteIt's not a big deal. The soldiers already know that their comrads are homosexuals. They live, eat, fight and, sometimes, die together.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing this policy does it force soldiers and their superiors to lie about their sexuality by keeping it hidden.
Why does the idea of two male soldiers getting it on in the barrack any more uncomfortable then the idea of a male and a female soldier?
I think having homosexuals, gay and lesbians, in the US Army and Navy is a good idea. It's about time we utilize talented people that are willing to risk their lives to secure our own lives and our ideals.
Why shouldn't they serve openly? To use the excuse that certain people are ignorant and hateful and may harm openly gay soldiers is a tired excuse. How terrible that people should be forced to move out of the their comfort zone and, G-d forbid, grow!!
ReplyDeleteThe point is that its not just sexual orientation - it's the fact that usually, there's some privacy separating soldiers from the other gender - in other words, people who they find sexually attractive, and vice versa. With homosexual soldiers, no such privacy exists.
ReplyDelete@alarbean : are you in military, or have you ever served?
ReplyDeleteI'm a Marine, and all that I have experienced in my past 3 years in is the complete and total intolerance for anything homosexual or of that nature. There's such an anti-gay feeling at least in MY unit, and the units I've served with, that I would genuinely fear for the safety of the Marines that would be open about their sexuality.
It's different with women, from what I've seen. The lesbians that are in my unit make it rather obvious (just by their actions and personal appearance), and no one who would speak of their sexual preference seems to have ridicule for them....BUT...it doesn't mean that they would not get into trouble if they openly came out.
Honestly, what bothers me more than anything else is that the military is involved in fighting two wars. Could the brass maybe just focus on winning those wars, rather than wasting their time on an agenda item being pushed by the far left?
ReplyDeleteD in Chicago
@FrumCurious
ReplyDeleteNo, I've never served in the military in any capacity. (Religious and parental issues prevented me from going further then speaking with a recruiter.)
You have my respect and appreciation for your service to the country.
My understanding of military life comes entirely from speaking with people who have served, watching television, listening to radio, and reading newspapers. What I've heard, is soldiers knew gay soldiers in their unit, but everyone just silent.
I cannot argue with your firsthand experience of the situation.
What are the underlying reasons that Marines have an easier time accepting lesbians?
Why do you think Colin Powell has come out for the policy to be lifted?
alabean,
ReplyDeleteif you look at what I wrote you will see I was in Army. My experience was the samw as curious'. Being a lesbian is ok but gay is not in ppl's minds. maybe Ill blog it after Shobbos but the bus is almost to the subway
Michaltastic and @FrumCurious,
ReplyDeleteWhat you both describe is completely different from how it's been portrayed to me in the media.
Do you think some of the anger you pick up on is related to the policy? Perhaps if homosexuals were allowed to come out, those around them would be accepting? Perhaps, if it didn't mean their discharge, those homosexuals that _might_ exist in your unit would be free to come out without "official" reprisal. Maybe that fear of being seen as "gay" is why they talk as "tough" as they do?
You trust the media over people who have served? I served in 1999 and 2001, so there was no media bias. The fact is simple, society outside of NYC and San Francisco, is still not very accepting of gays. They are welcome to serve but they should know not to have people find out. It's in their best interest. They WILL get beat up. It's true people are more accepting of lesbians.
ReplyDeleteI say it's about time. When Black soldiers first were allowed to serve together with whites, there were the same objections - that prejudice and infighting would lower morale and distract soldiers from their responsibilities. It's almost needless to mention that the same arguments prevented women from serving for many years. Not that there haven't been problems - Black soldiers have encountered racism, and women still deal with constant sexual harassment and even rape while in the service.
ReplyDeleteI, personally, have never been in the military, but my son (who is straight) is in the Army and was deployed in Iraq the first year of the war. We were discussing this issue once and he said he wouldn't mind serving with gay soldiers, and that he thought most of the people he knew in the Army would be able to adjust without much problem. There would be trash talking, of course - there always is plenty of that among soldiers, but ultimately they respect anyone who can do the job and is trustworthy and dependable.
If someone wants to be Patriotic and serve their country, they should have that right.
ReplyDeleteSexual abuse against women in the Military is a greater threat than gays in the Military.
Speaking as a Marine, I do not want openly gay men or women in the military. Our job is not to screw each other, our job is to kill the enemy. I don't believe in open sexuality at ALL in the military. Whatever you do on your off time is your own damn business. When your in the field you do the task at hand, which is killing the enemy.
ReplyDeleteHa! Nicely said, Allen!
ReplyDeleteWith heterosexuals, this has always been understood - with homosexuals, any objection to open sexuality will immediately become extremely political...
Open Sexuality in the Military?
ReplyDeleteUMMM Liddy England was PREGNANT when she got back from Iraq.
I guess it was an immaculate conception that kid was born
I don't see the problem. Israel and almost all our NATO allies have gays serving openly.
ReplyDeleteAnd something people don't realize: If NATO every fully mobilizes, all national armies essentially disappear. Homophobic Americans may find themselves taking orders from a Dutch or Italian gay officer.
Michaltastik,
ReplyDeleteWhen you ask, "You trust the media over people who have served?", I am not being clear enough for you. When I said "What you both describe is completely different from how it's been portrayed to me in the media", I wasn't making a judgment that you were more or less correct than the media. All I was saying is what you describe is completely different from how it's been portrayed to me in the media. Maybe the media is biased, maybe the media isn't, maybe the media reported otherwise and I just misunderstood their words. I don't know. Your perspective is different to me and I'd like to understand it before I reach a new conclusion about the openly gay and lesbian soldiers in the US Military.
“No matter how I look at the issue, I cannot escape being troubled by the fact that we have in place a policy which forces young men and women to lie about who they are in order to defend their fellow citizens,” Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the Senate Armed Services Committee.
ReplyDelete“I have served with homosexuals since 1968,” Admiral Mullen told the committee. He added, “Everybody in the military has, and we understand that.”
- http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/us/politics/03military.html
What do you make of this?
I like the approach described in the article. Let the military people study the issue and see if _they_ think this policy should be undone. After all, they know the situation better than anyone.
Just because the media found someone in the military who agreed with their leftist position doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority of military personelle feel this way. Yes, there are those that do. However, I don't think this is the majority. You know, if the military was made up mostly of people from California and NYC, then there would be no problem with this. I think they would be used to gays being accepted. However, the reality is that this is not the case. When I served, it was mostly kids from down south, farm boys and such. The drill sergeants used to comment how well bailing hay prepared them for the tough Army training that for them it was a joke. Those who had played sports, such as football, shared this sentiment.
ReplyDelete>Just because the media found someone in the military who agreed with their leftist position doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority of military personelle feel this way.
ReplyDeleteIt's not "someone in the military" that the media "found". It's the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Who, in his opinion, is joined by another former Chairman, Colin Powell, and the current Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, and a whole bunch of other generals. I think it's safe to assume these guys know the military.
>However, I don't think this is the majority. You know, if the military was made up mostly of people from California and NYC, then there would be no problem with this.
You could be right that the majority of servicemen and women are opposed to the repeal. But, with all due respect, that is unfortunate for them. Civilians control the military, and civilians want this to happen. If those factions in the military that are opposed to this development can't come up with real reasons in favor of the status quo, other than "we don't like gays", well, they're going to be overridden.
Civilians don't know about military life, they should understand that.
ReplyDeleteEven better, those are politicians. They are no longer gruntmen. The problem is that the gays will be the one to pay. They will get jumped by their entire platoon in the middle of the night. It will ruin morale and destroy the team mentality. We will have in-fighting instead of focusing on the enemy. FOOL!
ReplyDelete>Even better, those are politicians.
ReplyDeleteOkay, but politicians in charge of the military. And with some knowledge, i would expect, of things military. I wouldn't even describe them as politicians, they're just senior military brass that advise the President.
>They will get jumped by their entire platoon in the middle of the night. It will ruin morale and destroy the team mentality.
Are these two separate things, like if gays are allowed to serve openly it will destroy team morale and they will get beaten, or do the two go together, like gays will be beaten up and that will destroy morale and the team mentality?
But, seriously. The reason that gays should be kicked out of the military if people find out that they are gay is because there are bigoted homophobes in the military that can't control themselves from beating up people they don't like? Lord knows I've never served in even the Salvation Army, but isn't the military a famously disciplined bunch? Are you saying that if the Commander-in-Chief and all their officers down the line give them orders they will not be able to stop themselves from beating up their fellow soldiers? Maybe we shouldn't be giving these people guns, then.
if some jerk can't stop himself from attacking someone else, I have difficulty understanding why that someone else should have to suffer that jerk's attitude. I suspect you don't like this, but these sound like similar arguments against desegregating the military. If people can't serve in the military with people that are not like them, maybe they should get another job.