To wish upon a skin... part one

Guest post by anonymous

 

I've been pretty upset over the double standard of tzniut lately. Actually there's two double standards. One is the rule enforcement is different for FFB and non-FFB, especially for converts. FFBs are not criticized and are rewarded with attention from nice guys. Second, in my experience, following halacha repels normal men and attracts disgusting old men which people pressure me to date. I did work with a frum make-up artist and stylist to help select nice shabbat and date outfits that are both suitable and I like. I do get compliments on my appearance so it's not the outfits but lack of skin showing.

In shul and at shuirim (especially at the ones known for a big singles crowd), I see the girls that are around my age that are getting attention and lots of dates and shabbat meals, they 'fudge' with shorter skirts, lower necklines, and tight clothes. Things too suggestive that I would have never worn before conversion. Following halacha on modesty only attract creeps that see me showing up alone at events. It makes me feel weird standing out and not in a good way. Being ignored or worse harrassed by nasty old men makes me feel ashamed and embarrassed. Meanwhile te girls that bend the rules get treated way better.

...to be continued

Conversion controversy again? Or maybe it was a little twisted?

03/24/11    3pm

So, looking at some posts from the blogs that I follow, I found this post here by Rabbi Harry Maryles. Basically, it states that a woman, who converted through the Queens Vaad, and her husband want to make aliyah. According to Rabbi Maryles, states that the Queens Vaad was not being recognized. He or his commeters (I read it last night and I don't have the patience to see which) made some comment that now the Queens Vaad is not being recognized for marriages.

Now, I WENT THROUGH the Queens Vaad. I also know that my friend who converted with me (well, right before while I was in the waiting shower room) has already gotten married in Israel. She said when her mother-in-law brought in her papers they didn't even flinch, no waiting, phone calls, looking anything up-accepted on the spot.

So, seeing the post on R.Harry's blog, I was suspicious. I went to the MAMA article through the link on his post. Well, it turns out, the details were twisted a little bit. According to the article, "Fanny, who completed her conversion 10 years ago, could move to Israel registered as his non-Jewish wife, the Smiths cannot afford to do this. She would lose out on the financial benefit package that only new Jewish immigrants receive. The couple say they need these benefits to pay for their relocation."

Earlier on in the article, it says, " 'My wife and I live an Orthodox life and feel Orthodox, and we want to contribute to the Jewish state and live there,' Bruce Smith, a resident of Brooklyn, told the Forward. 'It makes us angry; it makes us upset.' "

While I agree that it's odd that they treat individuals who went through the vaad as gentiles, contribute? I mean, how do they contribute if they aren't rich American Jews coming to influx capital into the state? Instead, they are wishing to be carried by the state until they can float on their own. I'm surprised the state is paying for this. I was under the impression Nefesh B'Nefesh paid for the aliyah help and that they were funded by donations from rich American Jews. I have heard of state programs for people under certain ages with a bachelors degree where they contract to teach English or something, but not anything that everyone gets just cuz. Reading the article, I was wondering if maybe they didn't qualify for such a thing.

I still think there is something that isn't being said in the article. The RCA told me I wouldn't need a second conversion through them because the Vaad has a good reputation. If there was some funny business going on, where they were trying to hold control to get paid to convert, they would have offered to dip me for a fee. It doesn't make sense.

All in all. I guess it's good thing I don't plan on making Aliyah.

As a side note: I believe (but don't know because I'm not really on top of these things anymore) the Queens Vaad is no longer doing conversions, but this could be since the rabbi who did more than half, maybe 80 to 90% of the conversions passed away a little over a year ago (right before the start of last Spring semester). The other rabbis are also getting on in years (most over 80).

Some Tropper tapes are in better circulation than previously...

So, they've been talking about this black and white recording that was made from a hidden camera. This is now up over at the Troppergate blog as well as on YouTube. So, on Troppergate, they are discussing why Shannon is innocent. I think there's a heavy belief that Tropper is guilty. I just submitted the following comment:


Oh, puh-lease!

I've known some manipulative women who try to recruit me to their ways and I think she's just like them. I've never met any of these people but, I know what happened.

She wanted money for her custody hearing and let it slip to Tropper. She did things around him to turn him on (like eat innocently provocative-a favorite of the manipulative girls) then he made the offer. She had in mind all along that when she wanted out, if he didn't let, she would pull something like this. They are both guilty. I don't buy for a second that she was manipulated. Usually men wait until they have clues that they will get a desireable response before offering to give that kind of money for sex. Which brings me to the most important point. If she's such a sweet innocent girl, why did she take the money?

Those Who Say Don't Marry a Ger/Gyoress II

The original poster over on the Daas Torah blog has commented on my original post. So, I am posting my response to her. However, I'm also using that longish response to begin a new post on the same topic.

Over and over again, I hear that parents object to a potential shidduch between their precious little FFB and a gyoress (or ger). Usually the reason cited is that they don't want to deal with in-laws who aren't Jewish. Well, what if such parents don't exist? I mean, what if the potential shidduch's parents have both passed on? This also destroys the argument that you have to worry about interference from non-Jewish grandparents. I suspect, though, that no man would look at my profile on Frumster long enough to see that even if it were in my profile. They would see "convert" and that would be enough for them.

Now, moving on to the "revocations," the number of these revocations is few and far between compared to the number of conversions out there. I, as a convert, wanting to take the side of the one who's conversion, often find it hard to, as usually the rabbi has a good solid case for revoking the conversion-the conversion that should not have happened. I'm glad that I went through a beis din with a pretty solid reputation. I know that the girl who converted at the same meeting as I did, has already married IN ISRAEL. She sent her papers over to her now mother-in-law who took them into the beis din where she lives near Tel Aviv where they were accepted on the spot without questions or anything.

Also, if you think about it, an FFB could be blacklisted in the same manner that gerim are "revoked." Rabbis could suddenly refuse to give references for them and a community could speak about how they fell off the derech and they, too, would no longer be able to do anything in the Jewish community (like get an Orthodox mohel or get their kids into an Orthodox school) if they came back on the derech.

When BTs come back, they are questioned. I was told by a BT that several people have accused her of being a gentile who didn't want to convert. Where's her proof that she's Jewish? Why didn't she read Hebrew? I've also heard of BTs who got rejected for Aliyah.

Finally, when someone's precious little FFB is over thirty and still not married, perhaps one should consider that a gyoress might be a viable option.

A mind has been upgraded!

One of the blog commenters who has said some nasty things in the past about gerim has sent me an Email apologizing. I just think this is really great. It shows a little bit of progress being made.

As I've said before, one should look at the individual and not their "background." There are good gerim and bad gerim. There are good BTs and bad BTs. There are good FFBs and there are bad FFBs. One cannot judge someone based on these criterion alone. I would like to ask FFBs who agree with me to speak out on behalf of gerim. Perhaps, you could bring it up at a Shabbos table. Please teach your children that it's important not to judge someone negatively if they were not raised FFB.

We cannot help the family we were given by HKBH for whatever reason. However, we do have control over our observance destiny as we get older and become teens and young adults and even older than this. Actually, so to, the FFB begins to have a real choice as to whether they will stay on the derech or fall off. Let me make it easy for you, you're not missing anything, you really aren't. Ladies, drunk men trying to sleep with you? Nope, you are not missing anything.

Those Who Say Don't Marry a Ger/Gyoress

Well, over on the Daas Torah blog, he has posted the topic, "Should One's Child Marry a Ger?" and discussion has ensued. Arguments are being flung back and forth. The guest poster who wrote this has some concerns that I would agree are legitimate. However, some of the statements are outrageous. The comments get even more interesting.

First of all, she is worried that this person would fall off the derech. I think this is more likely with a BT because a convert has to fight so hard for their conversion. Second, she is worried that there will be questions about the Jewish status of the children, that they will be revoked. Ok, there may be problems with Eretz Yisrael, however, I think this is the minority of cases. Furthermore, I've heard of BTs getting hassled, too. Certain cities in EY are supposed to be more problematic in this regard. Third, Daas Torah adds that now one has to worry about upsetting their spouse with regards to the commandment to love a ger. Oh, come on! This is not what the Torah meant by love the ger. Normal lively discussions in the bais are to be expected. Intentionally not considering an otherwise compatible shidduch BECAUSE they are a ger/gyoress, however is not loving us.

The first comment on the post is by an Eddie who stuns the blogreaders with, "I do no wish to insult any Gerim, but a shiksa may come out of the mikveh Jewish, but her deep genetic character is still goyish..."  The blog owner chimes in with, "Are you saying that if one has a choice of marrying two women that one should give preference to the ger? The Torah says to love them - it doesn't say affirmative action is required."

Hmmm, that's funny, Eddie, because the way Hashems states in is "when a ger comes to convert" which is interpreted that the ger was meant to convert. As for Daas, now come on! Who really has such a choice to make with such perfect ceterus paribus? So don't go to a shadchan and ask for a ger but, agree to consider one. If a shadchan tells about someone and you suspect they are sending a convert to you because you agreed to consider one and not becauase it's a good match, you ask, "why is the person being suggested to me? I'm not hearing any common threads between us." I had a situation where the same shadchan kept suggesting over and over this same convert who was younger and wants a thin girl. I asked for older, up to ten years. Also, I'm not thin. I'm not fat, but I'm not thin, either.

I think, though, people have to start thinking about what's really important. This is not Subway. You can't stand there and tell them, "one of those, one of those, one of those, no-not that. one of those..." You think about what's important and you go from there. Incidentally, "stack or scrape?" is not important.

Guest Poster: what's different about gerim?

Why are Geirim (converts to Judaism) subject to discrimination within the Jewish community? Why would a community that outwardly proclaims openness, is in fact most insular? The reasons are many and nuanced but in the end, it is the fear of the ‘outside’, those not in the community that defines every group.

From childhood on, the individual is taught that he or she is a part of something much bigger than themselves. The affiliation to a particular group makes them special and every expression of narcissism is discouraged. Love means fidelity to the group, not the self.

Those on the outside, the ‘others’, are by necessity rejected and more often than not, hated. The concept is simple. Within the group is love and safety. Outside the group are outsiders, ignored or barely tolerated. When those from outside the group join the group they are suspect. They may cling to aspects of their prior lives, loves and priorities. If the outsider says ‘Yes, I have ideas of my own that I have learned along the way’, the group is often fearful of being undermined. This is not unique to converts. The relationship in-laws have with their child’s spouse is often undermined for the same reasons.

When the group demands ferocious loyalty, love and self abdication and abrogation, you can be sure that group also offers up ferocious hate to those outsiders and those within (Geirim) who do not see eye to eye with them. The greater the hate of the ‘others’, the greater the fear (and nuanced hate) of those who join the group. The Geirim are the unknown and by virtue of their past lives are different. Thus to some, the greater the hatred of the ‘other’ becomes an expression of piety and fidelity to the group.

Geirim can articulate their emunah with great clarity and passion. They come to that clarity and passion despite familiarity with the 'outside' world. FFB's fear the outside and just about anything and everything from the outside. The unknown ‘outside’ is the threat. Some geirim can tell you how Shakespeare can influence the soul with great beauty, passion and insight into the human condition. Many FFB’s can barely spell the Bard's name, because for most FFB's the great writer is treif. Other geirim can tell you how art can transform time and space. Virtually all FFB’s has never learned how art has transformed empires and great ideas.

Put a crayon into the hands of a young child and watch art be created. Play music and watch toddlers dance. Art of all kinds is an integral part of who we are. We need not fear the ger who understands this and other ideas. Geirim do not come to us to pollute us. They come to infuse us with what brought them to life- kibbul ohl malchut shomayim. They bring us a better understanding of our world. They are oxygen.

The unspoken truth is that in many FFB communities, the outside must be feared. Many gedolim with who have more than a passing familiarity with the ‘outside’ are marginalized because of that fear. It always amuses me to see how many people simply poo-poo brilliant Rabbonim like JB Soloveitchik, Yitzchok Twesky, Aharon Lichetenstein and a host of others because they are 'educated'. Neither the Rambam nor the Abarbanel would be able to make a minyan in Boro Park nowadays!. How many FFB's today know the Vilna Gaon was a mathematician? How many know Jonathan Sacks has probably forgotten more than most people will ever know?

Michal and other geirim threaten the FFB establishment because her world is broader. She sees a whole lot more of the magnificence and magnitude of Creation and the potential of humankind than most FFB's. She threatens the FFB world because her crap meter is highly sensitive and tuned. She can see right through the phoniness- and that scares a lot of people because that threatens the status quo.


The FFB community has to hide behind the idea that they reject the outside because of some phony sense of frumkeit and genuine ehrlichkeit. In truth, it is their own shortcomings and not the outside that scares those most of all.

An enormous part of the FFB community is imperiled because the shtetl model doesn't work here in the 21st century. A look at the State of the Community confirms that. In many ways, we are in a free fall and just playing for time. If a substantial part of the community cannot now support itself, what on earth would anyone believe it will get better over time, with even more distance from the realities of what it will take to make it in the 21sy century?

Truth be told, it is geirim and a large segment of the BT community that will have an enormous impact on the frum community- and that scares a lot of people for a lot of reasons, especially the current 'power brokers' and their followers.

Geirim may not be authorities on bishul akum or dofen akumah- and that scares a lot of people. They do know what must be done with abusers. They do know how criminals must be treated. Geirim have a moral compass that many fear because of it's clarity. There is no ambiguity in their sense of right and wrong any more than there is ambiguity in their emunah.


The community tolerates that ambiguity because they hope that if necessary, they will benefit from it. A lot of FFB's could learn a lot from geirim and that scares the daylights out of them. Not a lot will admit to that, but it's the truth.

Geros defend themselves

So, unfortunately, articles appear on the web discussing how some converts "adapt" to Jewish life during Xtian holidays. Unfortunately, the writers of these articles don't always select the most Orthodox people to use as an example. Voz Iz Neias had one such article up this past Xmas.

I feel like articles like this do a serious disservice to sincere gerim like myself and many of my friends. I have read several comments online (in blog comments and on Frumster) indicating that parents don't want their children considering gerim for marriage. They say they don't want to have non-Jewish in-laws. But, what if the girl in question's parents have passed away? What is the excuse, then, I beg of you? I asked some of my friends (also, geros) for their reactions.

The first feedback I got was, "Ho hum. You know when it says to love the Ger, Hashem didn't really


mean LOVE love. It was more like just don't kick them. I mean,

actually kicking is ok considering the long Jewish history of

persecution, but no kicking with soccer cleats. That is definitely

assur. Well at least on Shabbos it is. Well, it might be d'rabbanan,

so it could be ok with a shinui. Ask your Rav. But certainly, that

whole love part was just meant to be taken allegorically.



All cynicism aside, I think that the actual percentage of frum Jews

descended from geirim is probabally much, much higher than anyone

wants to admit. The system seems to be keep your mouth SHUT. I have

seen people advising that a giyores' children should not even know her

status. Don't make waves, be polite, don't stand out too much and

again, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. Unless the boy and girl in question are

under a certain age, why would the in-laws-to-be even need to know?

The shadchan should know (no Kohanim) and the Rabbi that marries them

needs to know (different kesubah). Other than that, for a couple,

let's say 30 or over, who else needs to know????"


The second friend's reaction was, "My mother helped me make my son's Bar Mitzvah - and when I say "make", I don't mean calling a caterer. We did everything ourselves. She paid for the bentschers, and was there with me greeting everyone and kvelling in her long skirt, which she probably wore once."

Possible sides regarding geirus

There are three options of mindset here:


Which side to you take? There are thre opinions a person can have regarding gerim:

1) All gerim are good and sincere, with pure motives.



2) Some gerim are good and sincere having pure and honest motives. Others have ulterior motives which sometimes they disclose and sometimes they hide from everyone.



3) All gerim/candidates have ulterior motives which sometimes they disclose and sometimes they hide from everyone.


Now, this... post sums up what I've been trying to invoke thought about and then some... It is trouble to stand on #1 or #3. I don't care if you divide the percentages in #2 99% bad and 1% good.. However, HKBH stated that one must love the ger. The very fact that he said this causes logical conclusion (I know that might be hard for some frum Jews) that #3 is NOT a valid halachic option. Those who believe #3 and act on it... Oy... can an FFB finish this for me? They will jump in and say, "who is she to say that this is against the Torah." The Torah asserts the right for gerim to exist.


I beg of the FFBs who see the Truth in this to speak out to the FFBs who do not. Such an FFB will never listen to gerim, themselves or even a BT... then again, they ignore Hashem so, why WOULD they listen....

Some tidbits from comments

Some tidbits that I've been putting up in the Daas Torah blog... food for thought:

Daas Torah and others,


HKBH is Perfect. He wrote the Torah and It is Perfect. Do you deny this? I hope not.



Moving on.... In said TORAH, one is commanded to love the ger isn't 36 times repeated? Do you deny that? If you do, you deny the above paragraph.



There is part of the Torah-the commandment to love the ger-which is being ignored by the vast majority of the people. Jersey Girl and yourself are helping me prove that.



I am just helping to clarify Hashem's Law for Him. This is no different from yourself. Furthermore, we are often in agreement on many issues. Again, in your mind, I am not allowed to have the exact same opinion as you against the establishment. Such an opionion is against the commandment to love the ger.

Tropper should be treated like he treated gerim...

I was reading the article and comments about Tropper over on 5TJewish Times:

I'm with #3. Converts are guilty until proven innocent beyond reasonable doubt and FFBs are innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.




This has GOT to stop!



Also, let's get it out there that Tropper is spewing false support that he doesn't have. Since when did it become Torahdik to lie?
 
 
 
 
I really think, yes, this is more of the same discussion being had since this started. People want justice and the mainline yeshivah world says he didn't do it. Again, it sickens me the double standard. Over and over again, I must defend myself at people's Shabbos tables and most recently on the Daas Torah blog. I learned, I know, I keep Shabbos, I keep kosher. However, I am consistently put in the position of defending myself and the decision of the rabbis who vouched for me to the beis din and the beis din itself who did convert me.
 
Yes, there are a lot of insincere gerim who get through. I agree wholeheartedly. This is why I want the rabbis to actually hold by the strict standards they have put out on paper. While it won't prevent people from continuing to have a bias against gerim, it most certainly does not help that there's some truth to what people are thinking. As I have told some other gerim in the Daas Torah comment strings, it is in our best interest that standards are stricter and less insincere gerim get through. When converts are slipping up and saying stuff about how they are converting because they mostly date Jewish men, then, of course, I will be put in the position of defending myself, as a gyoress.
 
However, it is imperative that if the yeshivah world should reserve their judgement for an FFB, then they should do so for gerim, as well. The polarity of guilt and innocence, seem to be opposite, though. I wish to see a middle ground for judgement of both gerim and those who call themselves rabbi.

How geirus should be fixed (revised)

There is little doubt in the minds of sincere gerim and Orthodox Jews who keep up with the news that something needs to be done to resolve the issues with geirus. What should be done? I am only one gyoress out there. However, based on my experiences taking classes, speaking with others and finally, my own learning for conversion, I have some ideas on how the rabbonim could go about this, if they so chose.

As already on the RCA protocols, regions would be created. Each region would have a beis din set up. I would make a beis din for EACH boro, another for just upstate whatever those counties are, another for NJ North, NJ South.... you get the idea... I would say that a Chabad beis din could be set up in Crown Heights and they would not be permitted to use their own regional beis din but they would go through that system. Those who convert with the Chabad would be expected to take on Chabad minhagim.

Furthermore, they should create workshops whereby the veteran conversion rabbis would work with novice conversion rabbis. The rabbis would get a certificate or be put on a list after completing this workshop. The veteran rabbis (who would likely also be the dayanim for the regional baytai dayanim) would also make themselves available for questions to rabbis who had not sponsored m/any candidates before, these new sponsor rabbis. In fact, they should constantly check in with the new sponsors. Women teachers could also obtain these certificates qualifying them to tutor or teach classes. It would be at the discretion of the beis din if a woman had enough Jewish education to take this certification or she needs more study beforehand. In this manner, there would be a balance between the power of the local rabbi and the local beis din.

I also think that they could then be practical and have classes set up by the beis din. Each rabbi who is currently sponsoring at least one person would be required to teach X number of classes for the beis din. Any other certificate holder in the community could volunteer to teach a section or more. They would put all these teachers together and have a giant class somewhat like they do at OZ (Ohab Zedek on the Upper West Side of New York City which hosts a program with about 60 candidates at a time.) It would actually be more efficient though, because besides taking the class, the candidate would have a sponsor (whereas OZ geirus candidate all have same rabbi) they are specifically working with. The sponsor would decide when to take a candidate to the beis din. As is the case now, the baytai dayanim would pretty much accept the sponsor’s recommendation.

This is a change from what goes on now. The problem I see is that some of the rabbis who are sponsoring candidates don’t seem to know what they are doing and they don’t seem to have any guidance. Furthermore, I don’t believe that someone is ready for geirus in less than a year. I sure wasn't ready at 3 months. Some may be reading this and feel it is not so different from the current RCA system. Well, the current RCA beis din is not enforcing the standards they have listed in their GPS. I know someone who converted through their beis din in about eight months. Furthermore, she converted with two children who did not want to convert. Besides this candidate that I know personally, we all know about Ivanka Trump who was converted in less than a year, despite her wardrobe which did not reflect sincerity and a desire to belong to the Orthodox Jewish world.

I stated previously that I don’t think the rabbis care. I maintain this. If the rabbis at the RCA care, why are they performing conversions that do not meet their own GPS standards? Also, I think it’s crucial that the rabbis who are sponsoring candidates have some sort of training from rabbis who have been doing this a while. A well-tuned crapmeter doesn’t hurt, either.

Oh, let me count the ways! The ways we are treated badly

A discussion developed in the comments of the Daas Torah blog about how members of the Orthodox community treat gerim poorly. Another gyoress and I were invited to write a guest post about this treatment. The other girl declined. I would first like to qualify the scope of this writing as only dealing with the negative experiences that I and some of my friends and acquaintances have encountered. I have had positive experiences, as well. Unfortunately, though, I've had far more negative experiences than positive ones.

One of the community’s favorite places to go after a gyoress is the Shabbos table. I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been at a meal and someone has just ransacked me with questions and comments that were wholly out of line. The converts and conversion candidates themselves are just as guilty as the others. I had a convert tell me at a meal that the host had told her I was a convert and she was too. She would like to hear my story. I told her I would be happy to remember her Email address and send it to her later. She declined. What was the purpose of announcing to the other guests at the meal that I was a gyoress in such a manner? In the incident with a conversion candidate, she asked me, “what’s your background?” I said, “what’s yours?” She said she was Catholic her whole life. I didn’t feel like arguing and dealing with such a thing.

One of my favorite insulting actions that members of the community do, is they start trying to talking me out of converting-except AFTER I’ve converted. So, I tell them this. They continue with comments about how I don’t need to keep the mitzvos because I’m not Jewish. I tell them very strongly, “I have already converted. You are telling a Jew to go off the derech.” They keep on with it.

Another jem is how they treat me when it comes to shidduchim. At the beginning of last semester, I was at the shul of a rabbi who I had used for a shidduch reference. He totally caught me off guard and embarrassed me profusely. He nonchalantly asks me, “You’re dating a rabbi, right?” “no…” with a really perplexed look on my face. He continues, “Well, they called me for a shidduch reference and I gave them a good one.” “I went out with one once.” “Why didn’t you go out a second time?” “Yeah, well, these guys don’t want to marry a gyoress. They think it’s a big joke to go out with one and try to prove I didn’t deserve to be converted by grilling me on Talmud and seeing if they can find something I don’t know.” The rabbi says to me, “Well, if you don’t get married, you won’t stay observant.” I’m thinking, but not saying, “Thanks for tell ME what I’M going to do.” He continued, with statements like: you have to get married, you didn’t like anything about the FIVE guys you went out with? (You’d think I had said 500) This continued on as I tried to defend myself. I was told, “women know what to do to get a man to marry her.” If I didn’t know, I should, “Read a book and learn!” I said, “I don’t have time.” Maybe that was too nice. Maybe, “I refuse to study manipulation tactics out of a book,” would have been a better statement.

Since shadchanim aren’t so nice to anyone, you can imagine what they do to me. I was offered a guy who doesn’t keep Shabbos. He has a “job problem,” you see. Another shadchanit started telling me about a 44-year old Yeshivish man, but something gave me a clue to inquire if he was for me. She said, “oh, no! I thought you could find someone for him for me.” Then she told me he was shorter than me. I’m 5-4. It seemed odd to me that she didn’t tell me this when she was telling me about him, if I was really supposed to set him up. Also, I was offered a blind guy at one point. The woman who Emailed this to me said it was someone else’s idea and wouldn’t tell me who.

Moving from set ups, to dates themselves and the feedback. I went out with a guy who asked me on a date various questions. One of them was, “do you know what bishul akum is?” Unless a girl went to seminary, do you think she would know it by name? Of course if I knew the principle as the “gentile can’t light the flame thingy,” does it matter if I don’t know the term “bishul akum”? It turned out I am friends with his cousin who informed me that I’m not on his level. If he wanted a seminary girl, he shouldn’t have accepted a date with me. He admitted it was just nosy curiosity about a gyoress.

Some miscellaneous insults from the community include strangers just asking point blank, “are you a gyoress?” One girl started asking me, “Do you have a blue skirt? Do you own a brown skirt? Do you own any gray skirts?” I think she was trying to see if I had enough skirts for a frum wardrobe. Not at a Shabbos table but at someone’s house on Shabbos, their guest grilled me as to why I wasn’t at a parent or other relative’s house-surely there must be someone…

After so many incidents like this, I stay home by myself on Shabbos. I don’t want to be around anyone anymore. I’ve come to hate people enough. I just don’t have the energy to constantly defend myself on a day when I, as a Jewish woman, am entitled to rest. I think, though, they feel it doesn’t apply to me. In the minds of some, I will never be Jewish.

Is Judaism still a religion? You know, for worshipping G-D?

When I read all this stuff about rabbis defending Tropper and speaking bad about gerim, I wonder, "where is the yiras shemayim?", "have these people forgotten about Hashem?" They are so into twisting and turning every little detail of the Talmud to cater to their social Judaism... and they trump the Torah. Chareidi is supposed to mean fear, as in FEAR of HEAVEN. So, why aren't more chareidi speaking out on the atrocities going on? How are chareidim like Reuven Feinstein taking money in exchange for their names and their backing? Are we really supposed to believe Tropper feared ShMayim when he was pimping his wife out to a non-Jew that wanted to convert? All Tropper's supporters who are chareidi, we're supposed to think they fear G-d? If someone feared G-d, I would think they would disassociate themselves from this man and his organization.

I reiterate, just because he's a Feinstein related to Moshe, doesn't make him the same person. He is showing his stripes by being bought off.

Why Not Ask Gerim to Contribute to Fixing the Geirus Problems

So the question was posed to me by "דניאל בן אברהם" who I'm guessing from the name, is a ger. Why do I suppose that they don't ask the gerim, themselves for suggestions? I thought the discussion that has been following warrants it's own post.

דניאל בן אברהם said...
Michal why do you think גרים themselves aren't being invited to help fix this?

January 10, 2010 4:33 PM
Michaltastik said...
Daniel ben Avraham (Are you the one I know? Who lives somewhere around here?)

I think no one cares. That's what I think. I think the rabbis are busy with their own lives and I don't think they want to create a better system, even though everyone pisses and whines about all these (supposedly Orthodox FFB) Jewish men who go out and find a non-Jew and bring them in for conversion. However, no one of substance cares enough to rock the boat and the rabbis have better things to do. If Tropper had done this because he cared, then he would have tried to work with the existing systems not pull what he pulled.

Furthermore, his standards WEREN'T higher. They really weren't/aren't. His people don't even have a sponsoring rabbi. They work with a married lady over the phone who doesn't even live in their community. We had one of their gerim in the community who attended the Chabad shul. The Chabad rabbi profusely expressed that he was not her rabbi, she just attended his shul. Well, she converted and then walked away from the community-jumped ship. She got her papers and that was it. She would not come to shul, return calls or Emails to anyone, not the rabbi, rebbetzin, not even me-a candidate at that time. What she hoped to accomplish with this? I'm not sure. Perhaps, she was converting for marriage and no knew or maybe they knew. I don't know too many details. The system that Tropper sticks his nose up at, it would be much harder for this to happen.

January 10, 2010 8:17 PM
Michaltastik said...
Tropper looked the part and got some R. Reuven Feinstein on his side. He didn't do this for the community, though. I think more than for money, he wanted to feel important. Listen to those tapes and read enough about him, if you have any lick of intuition or binah, if you will, you will see it RIGHT AWAY.

January 10, 2010 8:20 PM
Mordechai Y. Scher said...
As to why gerim aren't invited to fix the problem: in this case, why are they especially qualified? If the problem is one of organization, anyone can fix that in theory. If the problem has halachic subtleties, then a ger who is a talmid hacham could contribute - but no more than anyone else.

As for 'the rabbanim don't care' - this is patently untrue. Conversion and its many ramifications and proper treatment of candidates and standards and autonomy of local rabbanim, and...has been discussed and debated an awful lot the last few decades. Not always in the public eye; but a hot topic nonetheless. Some rabbanim, like Rav Marc Angel, speak out publicly. Some just work away quietly trying to do the right thing. Conversion is a much bigger scale issue now than anytime in our history, and I suspect that is part of the difficulty reaching some sort of consensus, or accommodation, or even simple cooperation. Then, of course, there is the fairly obvious role of religious politics in the whole mess.

What is so sad is that the people who really suffer for all this are the converts and the potential converts, even if we just discount all the ones who seem insincere or uninterested in a real commitment to Torah.

January 10, 2010 8:52 PM
Michaltastik said...
"why are they especially qualified? If the problem is one of organization, anyone can fix that in theory. If the problem has halachic subtleties, then a ger who is a talmid hacham could contribute - but no more than anyone else."

I don't know. I think some of us, because of our vested interests, are extremely aware of a lot of things going on that the rabbis may not be. I also think a sincere convert has an incentive to care. Having gone through the process, we may be able to see if it could have been more efficient.

For me, when I started my Yahoo group after my conversion, I got some ed-juh-mah-kay-shun on what is going through some of the other conversion candidate's minds. Because I wasn't a rabbi, I was asked questions that someone wouldn't have asked a rabbi or rebbetzin. After all that, then I felt that rabbis are converting a little too easy and not looking at the right stuff. They held me up. I still don't see why my first rabbi met with me for less than an hour TOTAL in our ten or so meetings in that first year. I speak to others and their rabbis would meet with them once a week for like 15 minutes... AN HOUR. Even the Av BD in Manhattan meets with you for at least an hour, at least once.

January 10, 2010 9:07 PM
Michaltastik said...
Perhaps, being fresh out my management class where the management mentality we learned was to constantly review the organization structure and see if it can be tweaked... I suppose you're right, it's just another restructuring. We learned in the class that restructuring is very difficult because of organization inertia. People are set in their ways.

I think this applies here, as well. While they claim they want change and the system isn't good enough, really these old rabbis are set in their ways and you know... let someone else change things... after they retire and they'll be happy for them.

Statement from Orand's Av Beis din

This link was posted over on Emes Ve Emunah in their comments. The statement doesn't provide for comments. I'll take comments on it.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24745709/EJF-R-Wender-of-Houston-Statement

EJF R' Wender of Houston Statement


For starters, I see they will slow down someone's process if they lose their job... that's not very nice. In this economy especially, this can happen.

aml's story

Reposted with permission from the comments section of Emes Ve-Emunah


I too fell in love with Judaism over a decade ago now. I spent three years learning and growing before I was finally converted. About six months after my conversion I was introduced to my husband, who is Israeli. We got married in the States and moved back to Israel together. We were married by a diyan from the RCA, who also provided me with extra paperwork for the rabbinical authorities in Israel. After we arrived in Israel, we went to have my conversion and our marriage “recognized” in the eyes of the Rabbanute. This was the single most humiliating experience of my life.

I was standing there, long skirt, long sleeves, hair wrapped up in a scarf, with my new, kippa sruga- wearing husband, in front of three heredi rabbis. We also had two of my husband’s kippa sruga- wearing friends who were there to “testify” that we are married and that they were aware of my conversion.
The rabbiam didn’t make eye contact with me. They spoke to my husband as if I wasn’t even in the room and basically compared me to a whore (and for the record, I was a virgin when I got married) and asked him why he’d bother marrying a convert. I looked at my husband, his mouth open, not sure how to answer them. Were these even serious questions?

I broke down into tears. The rabbiam were shocked. Maybe they didn’t think I understood, I don’t know. Maybe they thought I wouldn’t question them. I looked all three of them in the eyes and asked them, “Do you really think you represent anything having to do with God?” And I walked out.

A few weeks later we received two letters in the mail. My conversion and our marriage were officially recognized on their “holy” eyes. To this day we both regret going to them for their recognition. To ask for their recognition was to give them authority.

How geirus should be fixed

I think the bigger problem is that no one ever stopped to say, "who the hell is this Tropper guy and why is he doing this?"



I think people are impressed by Rabbi Reuven Feinstein. It's important to remember this is not R. Moshe Feinstein and being his relative doesn't make him such. He's acting like an @$$ with no judgement by associating with that org.



They could centralize it in such a way that it wouldn't be corrupt. What they should do, but, the reality is they don't care, follows.



As already on the RCA protocols, regions would be created. Each region would have a beis din set up. I would make a beis din for EACH boro, another for just upstate whatever those counties are, another for NJ North, NJ South.... you get the idea... I would say that a Chabad beis din could be set up in Crown Heights and they would not be permitted to use their own regional beis din but they would go through that system.



They should create workshops from the veteran conversion rabbis for rabbis to take if they want to do a conversion. The rabbis would get a certificate or be put on a list to indicate that they had studied conversion with the beis din. The veteran rabbis (who would likely also be the dayanim for the regional baytai dayanim) would also make themselves available for questions to rabbis who had not sponsored m/any candidates before, these new sponsor rabbis. In fact, they should constantly check in with the new sponsors. Women teachers could also obtain these certificates qualifying them to tutor or teach classes. It would be at the discretion of the beis din if a woman had enough Jewish education to take this certification or she needs more study first.



The baytai dayanim could also sponsor workshops for members of the community interested and willing to have candidates over for Shabbos. This would provide a network of secondary support for rabbis who are sponsoring candidates so that they would have somewhere to send them for Shabbosos. These community members would be made aware of things like: you are not supposed to set up preconverts, don't ask them where they are in their process, there is no concrete answer to this question for a candidate, mevushal wine and so on....


In this manner, there would be a balance between the power of the local rabbi and the local beis din. I also think that they could then be practical and have classes set up by the beis din. Each rabbi who is currently sponsoring at least one person would be required to teach X number of classes for the beis din. Any other certificate holder in the community could volunteer to teach a section or more. They would put all these teachers together and have a giant class somewhat like they do at OZ. It would actually be more efficient though, because besides taking the class, the candidate would have a sponsor (whereas OZ has about 60 people in that class and they all have the same rabbi) they are specifically working with. The sponsor would decide when to take a candidate to the beis din. As is the case now, the baytai dayanim would pretty much accept the sponsors recommendation.

Candidates could shop around at different sponsors but, not baytai dayanim.

Because these are all rabbis from the same community who already know each other or will in this process end up getting to know each other, there would be a big difference from what EJF was doing. The biggest problem in gerim is that half the sponsoring rabbis don't know what they hell they are doing and no one so much as encourages them to ask. There is nothing to train them to do geirus and there's no system that pressures them to go and ask a veteran conversion sponsor. Also, if a system like this was set up, Tropper would never have his way. He wasn't a geirus rabbi. He was self-proclaimed.

To be fair to Bee Zee....

Perhaps, his comments didn't blatantly say I was wrong. However, he kept mentioning that he has never seen anyone questioned or verbally cornered at a Shabbos table.

The originally article was me upset because someone who made discreet comments at a Shabbos table supporting the idea that converts, not conversion candidates but, CONVERTS, in other words, Jews can be questioned and watched for the rest of their lives. The person brought this up at the table full well knowing that I was a recent convert at the table. It seemed to me, this was brought up because of me. Furthermore, this same person wants to judge Tropper favorably. I find it annoying that someone feels they should judge Tropper favorably but, for any convert they should feel they get to "watch me" and they do. They watch converts intently and they grill us, waiting to find something so they can say we're not good enough to adorn the title JEW. THAT, is what bugs the stuffing out of me.

Bee Zee has mentioned over and over again that this doesn't happen in his neighborhood. I find that hard to believe. I really do. Perhaps, it's more like it happens and he is not aware of it. Unless Bee Zee is a convert himself, which my instincts don't think he is, then I can't imagine he would know how every convert in his neighborhood is treated.

Converts: so NONE of you ever had this happen?

Perhaps, you guys are following the comments on my other posts. Anyhow, there is a discussion right here on this blog. I mentioned that it BUGS the STUFFING out of me that people can be all about judging Tropper favorably and YET they can make comments about how the converts are insincere. Or, NO ONE met someone and when they find out a convert or in the process, they decide it's THEIR personal duty to make sure you are fit to be Jewish. Examples of people who do this are: potential dates that ask a battery of personal questions before the date, people you meet at a shul kiddush or at someone else's house, or people who having you over without knowing who you are first-perhaps a friend, rabbi or hospitality committee made the arrangement.

So, NO ONE has had this happen to them?