Wednesday, January 20, 2010

Daas Torah commenter demonstrating exactly why I stay home on Shabbos

So, I wrote this guest post for the Daas Torah blog (it was also posted here) discussing some of the examples of how I've been mistreated as a gyoress. One commenter in particular, did in the comments of the forum, what is done to me at a Shabbos table in front of several guests.

She started out trying to appear nice, "A few things that might help: 1. Instead of accepting Shabbat invites, perhaps you might consider making Shabbat and inviting others." Ok, but, who says I haven't done that?

Then she continued with, "The general perception, traditionally was that Shabbat invites were for travelers and others who are not capable of making Shabbat for themselves. When you accept Shabbat invites, you seem to give the impression that you are not accomplished enough in your own observance to make Shabbat preparations for yourself."

THERE IT IS!!! The crux of why I'm staying home is because I've realized that while I like to get out and meet new people.. well, I USED TO.. I see that people take this as an indication that they are doing me some big favor because I'm some kind of a nebach who can't cook for myself or doesn't know what I can and can't do with a blech and some food.

This woman went on to criticize that I didn't appreciate being grilled on a date to see if I really knew Jewish laws. She mentioned that her daughter was asked to take a psychological exam and apparently failed it. Oh, but, I thought her children were wonderful?

Regarding this issue, I think the point that I really should have stated in this last piece is that I'm offended that someone grills me when they were given three references to call. I know that he spoke with one of my rebbetzins. Additionally, I asked the boy POINT BLANK, if he would ask these questions of an FFB or if he was only doing it because I was a gyoress. At which point, he ADMITTED that he was indeed grilling me because I'm a gyoress. Essentially, he was expecting to find out I wasn't good enough. When he was not told this, he came to the date with a mindset to uncover it. Someone should not accept a date with someone if they are this set against it.

Anyhow, this woman just commented over and over again about how I don't know how to make Shabbos and that I'm not a real Jewish woman because "Jews MAKE Shabbat." Now, I don't understand. If I'm staying home, by myself, doesn't that mean I'm making Shabbos for myself? Or did she take the liberty of deciding that I'm breaking Shabbos? If it is the former that proves her comments were unnecessary. If it is the latter, then she is violating the commandment to judge favorably. Either way, she is wrong.

She went on to talk about her children and all the things that she says they know and do. She went on and on about how they just do so much chesed. I'm not really sure what her exact point was. However, it seems like this was supposed to add to her proof that I wasn't good enough to be Jewish.

When it came down to end of the comments, she said, "My kids are growing up "out of town" as I also did so they have to know the laws of Bishul Akum. It is inevitable that they will be out somewhere and get hungry. here is a lot that, according to our Rabbis, one can eat from a non kosher deli/restaurant and my kids know what they can and cannot have. "

At the point which I read this, I should be thanking Jersey Girl for the good hearty belly laugh she gave me. This is just how they are. This whole string of comments, she's commenting over and over again that I am not living up to the standards of FFBs. Yet, we see right here that she is not living up to the standards that a great beis din, like the one I went through, requires.

I wouldn't even ask my rabbi such a question but, I'm quite sure that if I posed this situation to him, that I need or wish to eat while I'm out in an area where there is no kosher restaurant, he would advise me to do what I already do: buy raw fruits/veggies or pre-packaged items with a hecsher from a grocery or drug store and eat them. There are too many issues that come with unsupervised open kosher food in a kitchen full of traif, I'm led to wonder what sort of "rabbis" this woman is consulting that they should suggest such a thing. Even the liberal Manhattan Modern Orthodox rabbis advise that you may only eat a small selection of COLD foods in a traif place.

54 comments:

  1. Wow, that's why Rav Eidensohn said that guest posters have to be prepared to take the criticism along with the praise. I don't know why people have to be so hard on others. You deserve a break here. You needed to be validated by being listened to and not invalidated by being over-analyzed. I think the basic issue here is validation and acknowledgement. I always hate when a discussion becomes an inquest on my neshomo!

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  2. Well, in doing what she did, she provided a perfect example of what I was talking thus, providing me an opportunity to prove I was right that people do this... they like that nasty nice sweet and sour that she did...

    "A few things that might help..." As if she actually is trying to help! She's not. I'm sure.

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  3. In my book, unsolicited advice is inappropriate.

    To give advice you have to have a relationship with the person, or if not, at least ask if the person is willing to receive advice.

    Conversely one can honor another person simply by listening.

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  4. Whoever commented on your post like this is an idiot. I have never felt, heard anyone else say they felt, or even gotten to impression that anyone assumes that someone who lives alone and accepts invitations for Shabbos is somehow unable to do things for themselves. Whoever assumes this is coming way out of anything normal, in my mind. Whether or not you are able to prepare food and other things for Shabbos by yourself, the point is that you shouldn't HAVE to do it for yourself! What kind of person can sit by their heiliger Shabbos tish in zing Shabbos nigginim while having it on their conscience that they are allowing, or FORCING, another Jew to sit alone in their home? Anyone who can do this, and feels fine doing it, and excuses it by saying, "Well, how else will they ever know how to do it?" is a sick, sad person, and apparently has no understanding of real Yiddishkeit.

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  5. @Michaltastik:

    See now, why I declined Eidensohn's gracious offer to give a platform to Gerim?

    Not only does he give a platform to commentators who hurt Gerim and some kinds of BT, he himself makes remarks that are no better.

    Furthermore, he has a nasty tendency of suppressiong comments he or someone else does not like.

    You do not have a chance for a fair debate on the "Daas Torah" blog.

    I wrote a comment of the same content over at "Daas Torah". let's see if he publishes it.

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  6. Gioret -

    You have unfairly mischaracterized rav Eidensohn. He is not an adversary of Gerim or anyone else. The only comments he might supress are generally of the rude variety.

    He has certainly published comments that disagree with his worldview (I have no doubt some of my recent remarks on Michal's post made him wince!) and I suspect that will continue.

    Rabbi Eidensohn is both morally and intellectaully consistent. He is only too happy to exchange ideas when the exchange in beneficial. I suspect he gets a lot more from the people who disgree with him than those who march in lockstep.

    Beat him up intellectually- and let him respond. I suspect he'd be delighted. You might not agree with him or he with you, but he will never make it personal.

    The guy is the real deal and a mensch to boot.

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  7. Gioret,
    I'm glad you posted that comment here. I would have been surprised at his intro. The original title I gave him was, "Michal Tastik - World of the gyoress III Blog commenter demonstrates why I stay home for Shabbos."

    She proved my point. Not to mention, I nailed her to the wall. I don't even see her trying to defend herself, hahaha GOTCHA!!!

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  8. Some time ago, a girl of my town sent him simultanously one positive and one critical comment about his blog. Both were very polite, without any derogatory speech. Mysteriously, the critical comment vanished in the virtual world, while the positive one got published immediately.

    Therefore, I do not think that he censors just to enforce "civilty". Furthermore, he is not at all against publishing insulting comments, provided they insult people or organisations he wants insulted.

    By the way, he says himself that on his blog, battles take place where blood and guts are spilled.

    It is true, however, that he makes an effort in this ongoing discussion about Gerim. He is publishing many comments that I think he would have suppressed in other threads.

    He seems to be extremely touchy about his kavod as a "Rav", although I doubt he ever served as a community rav or rav possek. I suppose he just passed a smicha exam somewhere, sometime, perhaps next to his profession as a psychologist.

    He likes to treat people he considers "Amey haaretz" with stinging arrogance. This is what upsets me most and what makes me doubt in his competence.

    In general, someone who is truly competent knows to explain a concept from the very beginning, while incompetent people often hide their incompentence behind a tantrum ("stop asking such stupid questions").

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  9. Well I wish you a great Shabbos, even if you do stay home!

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  10. Re: why people invite others over for shabbos, all I can say is..."whut?" Thankfully, I'm able to make shabbos for myself. Heck. I can stay home with my parents. i still prefer going to friends sometimes, and I do. Sometimes close friends, other times acquaintances, and you know why? Because we (I'll speak slowly, since the commenter may not understand this concept) enjoy...each...other's...company. Perhaps 50 years ago, there were other reasons for having guests, but so what? And I DO like the fact that she consistently proved herself to be an idiot.

    As far as dating is concerned, though...well, I can only give you my perspective, which you're (obviously) entitled to disagree with.

    As I've said before, you have a very unique background, and even with references, sometimes the best way to get factual information is from the person themselves, instead of going through references opinions and filters of what you're about.

    As far as whether you know jewish laws? I'd say that checking what beis din you converted with should ascertain that easily enough, no?

    In all honesty (and yes, I'm prepared to be completely flamed for what I'm about to say), if I was dating a giyores, I probably would ask slightly different questions...or more precisely, I would listen slightly differently to her answers. I would want to understand her reasons for converting, and I might be a bit more careful when figuring out her hashkafa, etc. Of course, I wouldn't do that on a first date. I'd save it for a later date, like I would with any girl.

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  11. SMB,
    She won't get that here. You have to tell her on Daas Torah's blog.

    BZ,
    Sorry for the delayed response. Thank you so much. This is what I've been trying to explain that people do... this nasty nice which I didn't really know how to pin it down. She provided the nice little example, much better than my listing of the superficial incidents off the top of my head.

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  12. Honestly, I suspect JG is mentally ill and deserves our pity. She certainly doesn't seem to have a very happy life from her comments throughout daas torah.

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  13. I wasn't posting to her - she's an idiot, and nothing I do will change that. But if you like, I'll post it there, as well?

    I'm also interested in hearing your perspective on my dating thoughts...

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  14. I'm not defending JG, but in the world of the blogosphere, people love to show how much they know....when in fact they know little.

    JG's comments are poshut foolish. I don't claim to understand how hurtful to you some of her underlying sentiments are, but it seems that one opens oneself up to such ignorance in the world of blogs.

    In real life, however, I agree with other posters that you need to develop a solid game plan to deal with the nudniks. Remember, it ain't you....it's them. You've already exhibited that you have a hundred-fold more self-confidence than most Jews walking the streets today. Use that enormous asset to your advantage, especially when that self-confidence is under attack.

    Have a great Shabbos, wherever you 'make' it. And, even if it's by yourself, I suspect you still relish it because you've seen the other side, and your happy you're not there anymore. Don't let anyone try to tell you that your relishing it is somehow faulty or incomplete, because it's not. Shabbos is our connection with Hashem.....the rest of it (meals, families, and everything else) are just the externals.

    Best,

    Daniel

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  15. It's not just that... there may be some FFB reading those comments who CAN be educated, even if she can't. I'm actually enjoying this, as her ignorance makes it so easy... I'm putting up some jems right now about how she may think she know bishul akum, however, the laws of notain taam come into play when one tries to eat out in a traif place which is why you must only eat cold.

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  16. The Curmudgeonly Israeli Giyoret says:

    First of all, BeeZee, kol hakavod on your comment. You are always of course entitled to your opinion on a subject, and you are right, gerim sometimes get insightfully compassionate treatment.

    But there is a time for praising the community and a time for slapping certain individuals upside the head, which you did quite well. And not because our blog hostess, or even Her Royal Curmugeonliness are always right, either.

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  17. I do not at all think that Jersey Girl is "mentally unstable", as you put it. She is just a bit bitter because she and her wider family have difficulties in making ends meet, as she described in another thread (that I cannot find easiy). So I can understand her when she thinks her problems are worse than the Gerim's. Problems you have to face yourself are always worse than someone else's...

    You know, racism and hate towards newcomers/strangers mostly comes from those parts of population who feel deprived themselves, and this seems to be her case.

    What I do not understand is why she does not ask the rich sponsors of Giur organisations for help, instead of critising them for helping Gerim...

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  18. I don't know about others, but I host guests frequently for one reason and one reason only...because being alone for Shabbos is damned depressing. My husband and I love hosting people, and although I have to shut down his shadchan tendencies (he tends to set up people he doesn't know very well, so he can be pretty off-base about who would be appropriate).
    Believe it or not, there are people who can host guests for Shabbos and let them keep their dignity intact. This woman was a nasty idiot and not a decent representative of anything.

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  19. You see, growing up, this is an example why I would not give too much on Mr. Eidensohn's Daas torah, although he calls himself a Rabbi: It is taken from "World of the GEr V, fixing the system"
    "chazal themselves gave the advice not to marry a Gioret".

    When reading that I am shocked! What? Chazal said one should not marry a Giores? This is the majority opinion of the Poskim?

    Turns out it is not, because Mr. E. graciously provides us with his source: "Do not sit upon the bed of an aramean woman"... "some say it means do not marry a proselyte woman".

    So now we are down from "chazal themselves say" to "some say"...

    Turns out he cut the quote in half and left out the third "some say": It means you really should avoid sitting on the bed of an aramean woman, because once there was a dead child under the mattress and the person who sat on it would have been accused of murder/manslaughter...

    When "Mekubal" restaured the quote in its context, Mr. Eidensohn's reaction is: "Please find me one commentary that states we have mutually exclusive statements here"

    Announcing "chazal themselves say" for "some say it means", is what I would call a dirty trick in rhetoric...

    And "please find me one commentary" is, in my view, sneering arrogance towards anyone who is not as "literate in the sources as himself".

    These kinds of incidents make me doubt his overall competence as a Rabbi. I suspect he just throws around quotes, and hopes that no-one will catch him when they do not even mean what he says...

    Of course, on the Internet he has a fairly easy game, because "great Talmidey chachamim" tend to shun the net...

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  20. Well, as you see, anything I write for his blog, goes up on my own, as well, so it's not wasted. He said I was intelligent and write well. Considering how much he speaks against gerim, that's certainly a compliment.

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  21. But he seems to be quite a twisted caracter. He does not seem to remember what he said the day before.

    I am appalled that he first invites you to write a post, asks you questions, and when you answer the questions he does not like that you "tell jews how to interpret judaism".

    This is the weakest counter-argument I could ever think of.

    He really was a wolve in the sheep's clothes at the beginning, all polite, offering the best possible conditions, and now he shows his "wolf face" by denigrating you.

    So if you want a piece of advice: as soon as you write him: Dear Rabbi Eidensohn, I admire your competence and fluency in source texts and I will never achieve your great Madrega, he will become all sugar and honey.

    It's all just about EGo, and he is not even aware of it.

    In some sense, I can understand it. I suppose he himself is some kind of BT and learning Torah did not come easily to him. So he is very proud about what he achieved and likes to brag around. Fair enough...

    And what I most dislike is how he takes Rav Sternbuch's quotes exclusively to show that he is right...

    While I understand that Rav Sternbuch really says him: Look, you are a grown man with a grey beard. It is not for me to tell you what to do....

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  22. Nah... he just wants hits. It doesn't bother me. Winter break ends from college in a week anyway. At which point, I won't be on there, so much perhaps not at all. I'm taking SIXTEEN credits this coming semester.

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  23. When "Mekubal" restaured the quote in its context, Mr. Eidensohn's reaction is: "Please find me one commentary that states we have mutually exclusive statements here"

    Announcing "chazal themselves say" for "some say it means", is what I would call a dirty trick in rhetoric...


    Actually when R' Eidensohn said this it quite upset me. First none of the commentaries(aside from the Rashi which I cited in my comment) even touch this. It is not Halacha, it is a statement made in Aggadata. Secondly he ignores the rules of Talmudic logic as defined by our sages, most notably Rav Shmuel HaNagid(a Rishon), the Ramchal in his Derekh Tevunah and Sefer Regiyon, and more modern R' Yehoshua Kohen in Kerem Yehoshua.

    You say Chazal say with how a sugiya ends, not its middle interjection. In this case they listed a couple of erroneous beliefs that popped up around a statement, and then gave the proper interpretation, as I tried to point out. At least it is there for thinking people to see.

    In some sense, I can understand it. I suppose he himself is some kind of BT and learning Torah did not come easily to him. So he is very proud about what he achieved and likes to brag around. Fair enough...
    Actually he is about as FFB as they come. Grow up with a father who was a Rav, either his grandfather or his father was a major player in the Agudah. No he is FFB with all of the prejudices that that implies. Hence his allusion to these mysterious issues that all B"Ts supposedly have.

    What can you do? I used to think I was just being overly sensitive to the B"T thing. Then I saw what happened to a B"T who was made into a Rosh Yeshiva of a very respected Yeshiva when it came out to the greater FFB public that he was a B"T. The fact that he went from a being a barman in Hamburg Germany to being actually being on a level to inherit a Yeshiva from an FFB in just over 15yrs speaks volumes to his dedication to Torah and his abilities in those fields. But he still is suspected of having these mysterious "issues."

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  24. "You say Chazal say with how a sugiya ends, not its middle interjection. In this case they listed a couple of erroneous beliefs that popped up around a statement, and then gave the proper interpretation, as I tried to point out. At least it is there for thinking people to see."

    Thank you for being there with these things. I know that he is wrong. Hashem didn't put it in the Torah 36 times to love the ger for nothing. I love the way he says Hashem is wrong. I quote Torah, you call me wrong... You call Torah wrong.... therefore you spit in the face of HKBH. I don't think he learned how to love Hashem, therein lies the problem. Also, this is why he hates us (gerim/BTs) because this is most basic to us.

    Mekubal, you're worse than I, don't you ever sleep? You're on when I get off and you're on when I get up in the morning.

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  25. Mekubal, you're worse than I, don't you ever sleep? You're on when I get off and you're on when I get up in the morning.

    I learn. A lot. I sleep five to six hours a night, sometimes a nap between sedarim.

    The real issue is that how to learn a Blatt is becomming a lost art. That is the real problem. It used to be that if someone quoted a one line Gemarra like that, and not the entire sugiya, or at least the shach v'tariya, people would laugh at you. Now however it becomes common practice. Personally I think it is because Gemmarra is read, and not really learned in many Kollelim today. To get paid a person has to cover two blatt a week and be able to pass the tests on what is written on the page. So instead of going in depth it becomes a very surface knowledge. There are a few Kollelim that are different and that actually allow for(or even require) iyun study, but in many cases they are the least popular.

    With D"T that is what I think the problem is. He is has been in Kollelim far too long, and never really gone back to the iyun work. It really annoyed me that he said "Chazal Says" and quoted only half the sugiya.

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  26. He's in Israel. Does this solve the mystery?

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  27. ok that went through but I still lost two comments. I'll post when I get home. I'm in Brooklyn so thats like 2 hours.

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  28. Ok, so, I knew Mekubal lives in Israel, but, he was commenting up until I went to bed and commenting when I got up. I slept abotu 4 hours last night. Although, maybe when I went to bed, he was already up... but, when did he sleep, he was commenting over on DT yesterday, too?

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  29. Ths is his wife and I'll tell you honestly, he doesn't sleep very much. He's just that kind of person.

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  30. Yes, he's often posting under your ID by accident. Did he show you the stuff going on over there?

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  31. This is an example of comment that disappeared in virtual limbo and never made it to DT's blog:
    It went with the post "When religious people lie" and read something along those lines:

    "I never thought that religious people are more moral than "other people". The demarcation lines between "moral" and "immoral" are not the same as "religious" and "non religious".

    Are you aware that there are chareidi couples in NY who never declare they are married in order to get single mother benefits? The municipality workers must get the impression that it is perfectly OK with the chareidim, to be unmarried while producing one child after the other."

    Was the comment lost in virtual space? Or did it arrive and was censored? If it was censored: why? Is he afraid that NY social workers might read it and cut benefits to those families? Or that anybody might read it and think bad of jews? Or is it so outrageous to say that people who define themselves as religious are not per se better than those who don't?

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  32. I put something through last night. Someone asked why he's hot & cold on me I said, .hits, he wants hits."

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  33. I hear Chareidi Jews have a special counter at the Section 8 office. They go in and out in 5 minutes while everyone else waits an hour to two hours.

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  34. Are you aware that there are chareidi couples in NY who never declare they are married in order to get single mother benefits? The municipality workers must get the impression that it is perfectly OK with the chareidim, to be unmarried while producing one child after the other."

    This statement is half true. Many Orthodox Jews do not declare they are married in NY,because NY has rather draconian divorce laws, and what is required to get a secular divorce is not in line with halacha.

    That being said, many then exploit the NY welfare system to get extra money. There really is a separation of issues here. On one hand they are doing something in order to stay true to their religious beliefs. However, in the process that also opens them to another temptation, which is money. Just want to be clear that they are not doing it in order to exploit the system, rather they exploit the system because they can.

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  35. This is why the women don't work, eh?

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  36. "When you accept Shabbat invites, you seem to give the impression that you are not accomplished enough in your own observance to make Shabbat preparations for yourself."

    That is one of the genuinely stupidest things I have ever read and I have *zero* sympathy for it. Truly -- such a notion can only be borne of a twisted foolishness.

    "Hence his allusion to these mysterious issues that all B"Ts supposedly have.

    Then I saw what happened to a B"T who was made into a Rosh Yeshiva of a very respected Yeshiva...he still is suspected of having these mysterious "issues.""


    It's amazing, I've seen the "issues" thing raised a hundred times, across every possible social and learning context. The message is transmitted subtly and un-subtly in the BT yeshivos (at least the solidly charedishe ones). Charedi society has ascribed to non-"frum" culture massive, ineradicable and mystical powers of corruption, contamination and subversion.

    Once Torah went from Torah itself to.... culture.... then every form of inanity, insanity and esoteric mumbo-jumbo with a "religious" face became de rigeuer. Because the issue is no longer about Torah; it's about maintaining a culture that "we're" comfortable with. Do I feel discomfort? Then it must be awesomely treif !

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  37. " "When you accept Shabbat invites, you seem to give the impression that you are not accomplished enough in your own observance to make Shabbat preparations for yourself."

    That is one of the genuinely stupidest things I have ever read and I have *zero* sympathy for it. Truly -- such a notion can only be borne of a twisted foolishness. "

    Wingate, unfortunately this attitude is quite prevalent. The two rabbis who vouched for me to the beis din have ticked me off since my conversion. One of them made a comment (I was supposed to move to Brooklyn but, I didn't) when you move to Brooklyn, you can get take out food so you don't have to bother people.

    I had to explain to him that food is not the problem. I can get take out food now. However, I wouldn't bother. I am perfectly capable of cooking for myself. My mother starting teaching me how to cook I was about 9. She started with basic things like fried eggs, mac & cheese... and I've lived on my own for over a decade, so, of course I know how to cook. How would I have been eating this whole time? That statement really narks me and I get it all the time. This is why I don't ask for invites.

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  38. Wingate,
    Welcome to my blog. I like your thing about how culture is everything and Torah is out the window... you wouldn't want to write a guest post about that, would you?

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  39. This is why the women don't work, eh?

    No that is because in the Post Holocaust world, Judaism has gone from a community centric mindset to a Yeshiva centric mindset. Since that mindset took hold before women's Liberation and massive integration into the workforce, ultimately a culture of acceptable poverty became the norm.

    Whatever the propaganda may be today, Mordern Orthodoxy started as a reaction to that. Essentially it was a throw back to an "Old World" community centric mindset, of Judaism and Jewish community provided a sufficient anchor to integrate into modern society, and not assimilate. Thus enabling the people to get well paying professional jobs.

    Yes I know that this is an oversimplification, but I am not trying to write a sociological study on Orthodox Society of today.

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  40. Mmmmm.... don't tempt me! I have way too much to say on it... :-]

    Maybe I shall..... I'll let you know by e-mail. Just gotta balance time, obligations and rent-payal.

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  41. Well, if you decide you feel like writing it when ever you have time.... my Email is on my profile.

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  42. Mekubal,
    Did you see in my other post how I said, "Modern Orthodoxy: Thank G-d you're here!"
    MO are also kinder to gerim and BTs. The older people I know complain about how no will let them wear a gray suit and really they complain about the differences between MO and Yeshivish. MO machmir is fine. It's these MO liberal types who make MO look bad.

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  43. her comments are so stunningly ridiculous that i cant even start.
    i dont have all day.

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  44. MO are also kinder to gerim and BTs.

    I have had some really nasty encounters with MOs, and some really good ones. The same with Chareidi. I think that it really simply depends upon the individuals, and what they are taught at their Yeshiva/Shul.

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  45. >"One of them made a comment (I was supposed to move to Brooklyn but, I didn't) when you move to Brooklyn, you can get take out food so you don't have to bother people."

    To be honest, I don't even quite get what such a comment is supposed to mean..... Was it some sort of implication that..... you'd be 'unable' to make Shabbos food on your own??? That you don't know how to cook??? That you're somehow reliant on the kindness of strangers??? If so, that's astonishingly obnoxious.

    Was he saying that it was a good thing because it gave you the flexibility to enjoy a kind of lazy "in-Shabbos" when you feel like it?

    Personally I (male) do the in-Shabbos thing sometimes.... including when I actually don't feel like "bothering" folks (I'm sure it wouldn't literally be a bother, but....) or am just feeling acidically antisocial.... :-0

    I dunno.... I guess I'm just happily insulated from Brooklyn. Some of the coded lingo apparently flies right past me. (Praise the Lord!!!)

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  46. "I have had some really nasty encounters with MOs, and some really good ones. The same with Chareidi. I think that it really simply depends upon the individuals, and what they are taught at their Yeshiva/Shul."

    Entirely agree....at least as far as it goes. But there is a big difference. Charediism has a philosophical bent that encourages both charedim and the people who interact with them to understand and experience every behavior and word in a relationship as a manifestation of the charedi ideology.

    It's great PR when you're meeting a great charedi. But when you're not....

    MO doesn't promote or entertain any such notions.

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  47. If you don't mind I'm going to leave it at "happily out of town" for now... :-]

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  48. Michal-
    I keep up with the DT blog, I just don't comment very often because I hate arguing with people who refuse to see logic! Like JG saying she ate food from *WENDY'S*(!!!) on a road trip (like it's not a marit ayin to even go into a treif restaurant, even to use the bathroom!) and really trying to insist that she's right, despite all the problems with it. I just don't deal well with stupidity. Ignorance I can handle, but stupid is forever.

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  49. Wingate - but no matter what group we're from, isn't it true that our behavior and speech is supposed to be in line with our value systems (presumably, the torah)?

    And when paired with the fact that most jewish people tend to be relatively easily identifiable as such, isn't that part of making a kidush hashem (or chillul hashem, R"L)?

    I'm not sure if i fully understood you, so if not - please elaborate?

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  50. There is another type of comments "Daas Torah" apparently likes to censor (and I do not really understand why).

    Last Friday, I wrote three comments to the post "Is a beis Din obliged to convert a jew".

    They said:
    1) it is difficult to read a person's mind (i.e. to know the true intentions of a convert)

    2) If a convert keeps all the relevant mitzwoth, but is opposed to animal sacrifices, is she really a non-jew?

    3) Your own post says that is not allowed to delay the Giur of a person who sincerely wants to keep all Mitzwoth. This does not even allow for administrative problems, i.e. delays due to high demand.

    None of those comments were published (none contained any form of abusive language). So I thought: perhaps they did not come through.

    Today, I wrote two comments that were published. So I wrote one more comment stating that it is an Aveira to delay or refuse the Giur of a person that wants sincerely to keep all mitzwot. Miraculously, it vanished in the blogosphere.

    I conclude from this that Mr. Eidensohn has his own agenda and cannot accept diverging opinions...

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  51. I started another post to discuss this:

    http://www.michaltastik.com/2010/01/where-oh-where-did-comment-go.html

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