Thursday, December 3, 2009

Let's clarify...

When I said that someone who demonstrates against Israel isn't Jewish, I really meant in that behavior of protesting the Jewish land, they are un-Jewish. If someone burns a US flag.. they are unAmerican. I know some of you don't agree but, Israel is the only Jewish land. Israel is the only land where THE national holidays are the Jewish holidays. I agree with those who say that we really don't know how safe we are in another country. Sure, we may be safe now... but, who knows how long that will last. I agree that many American Jews are disconnected greatly from the land of Israel. When I went to see Jaffa, the Israeli movie:

at the reception afterwards, I overheard people who had been to Israel once telling others about it. One specific snipet I heard was, "it was very hard to get around because it was THE SHABBAT." Who says, "the shabbat" anyway? Obviously this person was barely, if at all aware of what Shabbos is supposed to be. Now, I bet the secular Israelis have a better grasp of Shabbos. It showed that indeed, most American Jews are too disconnected and cofortable in the diaspora.

The idea that we have a whole nation full of Jews... it intrigues me. Israelis are different than American Jews. In America, Jews are kinda similar. There's the stereotype of the JAP and the pencil pusher with glasses... In Israel, the Jews are everyone not just a population. It's ssssssssoooooooooo different. Ok, I admit this is my feeling from talking to people and watching my secular Israeli videos. Sidenote: MAN, are the Israeli men hotter in Israel! Anyway, I definately want to at least make my first trip to Israel: for the men and just to be in the Jewish land....


  1. The Curmucgeonly Israeli Giyoret says:

    "MAN, are the Israeli men hotter in Israel! Anyway, I definately want to at least make my first trip to Israel: for the men and just to be in the Jewish land...."

    And you would be right, Michal. Those IDF uniforms were designed to look attractive on both the men and the women (Lola Be'er, who created the originals, was a high-fashion designer.) My sister-in-law and her friends used to refer to giving the soldiers the once-over as "appreciating the greenery".

    Also, I think there is something to the claim of another friend of mine that there is something about the Diaspora experience that drains much of the oomph out of too many religious guys.

    But then, I am not just a Zionist, I actually LIKE it here.

    Come to Israel! Appreciate the greenery!

  2. The reason why you make these connections is because you, along with certain segments of the Jewish (Orthodox and non-Orthodox) see an intrinsic link between Judaism and political Medinat Yisrael, as well as a link between political Israel and halachic Moshiachdik (I don't know how else to describe it) Eretz Yisroel. The same connection isn't made by all Jews, especially in the Chareidi world. Therefore, to me and to many others, it isn't un-Jewish to protest against (secular) Zionism, but only un-Zionist. I am not saying that this is the only position that makes sense, but it is my position, as well as that of many others.

    I happened to have attended non-Zionist Chasidic institutions, yeshivos, et cetera. There was never really any sense of urgency in demolishing the current State of Israel, nor any desire to claim that it is a complete affront to halacha. The non-Zionist attitude was expressed in a very nuanced way, explaining that the original secular Zionism that played a large role in the development of Israel was wrong, and that celebrating secular days connected with modern Israel is also wrong. However, since Israel does exist, and it protects the lives of Jews, and it funds religious education, to support the dismantling of Israel is also against halacha (i.e. two wrongs do not make a right). Basically, whatever wrongs were perpetrated by the original secular founders of Israel, and however misguided Zionism is today, to destroy Israel, or to protest for the dismantling of Israel is an issue of sakana (placing Jewish life in danger), and whatever the disagreements about the legitimacy of Zionism, there is no disagreement about placing Jewish life in danger. From my point of view, and from being within the communities in which I live and exist, this is the general view with regard to Israel. It isn't the flag-burning, "let's demolish Israel" attitude that prevails. This is held by a subset of a subset of Chasidishe people, and isn't even endorsed by the majority of more vocally anti-Zionist movements (such as Satmar, Toldos Ahron, etc.).

    When I was learning in yeshiva in Israel, after finishing in America, my rosh yeshiva was very much against the Zionist ideology, as he felt that it was both religiously misguided and insincere. He felt that the real way to help Israel is to live in Israel, learn Torah there, help to uplift the secular communities to living a life of Torah, and make sure to vote and make your voice heard. This is the viewpoint of most Chasidishe circles (notably Belz, Bobov, Ger, etc.).

  3. My interpretation is that secular Zionism is a sample Hashem put out there to see if the Jewish people would appreciate it. If He feels the people appreciate it, He should send the moshiach and thus, this Israel will turn into that Israel. However, if the people don't appreciate it, we will be back to a total diaspora as we were prior to 1948.

    What do I base my opinion on? Women's intuition and knowing Hashem. According to those who say women don't have to do anything, it's because we're superior and closer to Hashem and more spiritual. Therefore, my opinion as that of a woman should in theory trump that of all men. Furthermore, this would include rabbis who are men.

    Nevertheless, I know better. I know that men just use that statement as a lip service to women. Men think you compliment women and it will shut them up so you can look down at us as if we are stupid and on par with dogs. Meanwhile, you'll be running back to your post shacharis wine and doughnuts-men only.


    Someday, though, the moshiach will come and he (or she, -evil cackle-) will explain to you men that women are awesome and Hashem actually does like us, despite what the Chareidi men might think.

  4. I really don't see what your issue is. If you have a problem with certain men, perhaps you should take it up with those individuals, not turn yourself into a vigilante who attacks people with no reason. My entire response was on topic, and I wrote about the reality of the Chareidi non-Zionist viewpoint. Did you not like that it wasn't sensationalized, and actually made compromises and came to an understanding of real world events, thus removing your ability to attack based on Chareidi ignorance and backwardness? Is this why you had to turn (once again) to attacking what you perceive to be sexism in the Chareidi world? I never once mentioned women, their views, their ability or inability to do things, or any status regarding their place in Judaism. That had absolutely nothing to do with the topic, and I didn't make any reference to it at all. Furthermore, if you would like to assert your that opinion and intuition trumps that of all men, then you must say the same thing about the intuition of other woman, many of whom would agree with the Chareidi viewpoint regarding Zionism.

    I don't know what you mean by "shacharis wine and doughnuts" either. If you go to any shul in Boro Park, for any davening, be it shacharis, mincha, or maariv, people daven and leave. There is no food, no drink, nothing. It is just a big room with people who walk in, stay for davening, don't really speak to anyone else, then leave. I don't know what goes on in the places that you have attended, but I really don't think that you should take small snippets of what you have heard certain people say about others, or what you have seen in one place, and apply it to an entire community. However prejudiced and discriminatory you feel that Chareidi people are toward women, I think that you are more discriminatory and prejudiced towards us, as evidenced by your constant need to bash us, even when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

  5. The topic at hand is that certain Chareidi are against Israel. Although, you say that out of one side of your mouth and then tell people to make aliyah out of the other.

    The topic at hand is that Jews pubically speak out against Israel. They demonstrated at the UN and it disgusting my RELIGIOUS Zionist Jewish FROM BIRTH (I have say this since to you and your anon friend say converts are on a lower status and our opinions do not count) friend FROM Boro Park and he posted it on his Facebook status, so I discussed it on my blog back in September.

    Now most recently, this discussion was revised by one who hides behind the label of anonymous when they (he, come on we know it was a "he" complete with the bobbing peyos) again came on to my blog and said that my opinions don't matter because I'm a gyoress and how dare I have an opinion as a gyoress? Or how about that I should be grateful just to be Jewish?

    I was the one bashed by anonymous first. After all, I dare to have an opinion that perhaps the current state of Israel is something intermediary between diaspora and the desired state of Israel. And how dare I have an opinion says anonymous. Besides which, according to anonymous and you, only people in Boro Park's opinions matter.

    So, again, I reiterate that my original post commiserated with an FFB from Boro Park's disgust at the rally by the UN Jews made to speak out against Israel. All reasons that my opinion were attacked (I am not an FFB and I do not live in Boro Park) originally came from someone who meets your criterion for being allowed to have an opinion... or do you have a new reason to say this opinion is invalid?

  6. I never said anything about gerim being on a lower level or being unable to have legitimate opinions. The fact is quite the opposite, with gerim being on a very high madreiga. The "anonymous" person is not my friend, nor am I aware that he is anything that I associate myself with. If someone is an idiot, then they are an idiot. It doesn't matter if they are from Boro Park and Chasidishe with long peyos and a groisse shvartze koppel, or from Jackson, Mississippi. I didn't say that he was allowed an opinion, though I do think that he is. I think that you are also allowed to have an opinion. However, I failed to see what gender had to do with *my* response to you. Again, if you have a problem with a *person*, fine, have a problem with them, but *do not* allow that to get in the way of an entire segment of the Jewish community. To see someone do that is very sad, though it is also sad to see a Jew (like the anonymous person who made disparaging remarks against you) drive other people to feel this way about my community.

  7. Well, ANONYMOUS person who started this... DO YOU SEE THAT?!?

    The other thing is that I think you were not realizing that while I see an intrisic value to Israel, I do see this as, we all hope, an intermediary between between diaspora and the Israel davened for.

    Proof that no one, not even the Modern Orthodox Zionists see this Israel as the "end all, be all Israel" is in the fact that the rabbis haven't taken out of the siddur to daven for Israel. We continue to daven for that Israel because this Israel is not that Israel. However, we are no longer in the same total diaspora situation we were in prior to (this) Israel. We are somewhere in between. We commemorate the "in-between" state that we are in.

    Perhaps, you could be a beacon to explain this misunderstanding to others. That is, if that wasn't too confusing.

  8. I do understand this. I have friends that are Modern Orthodox, and I am aware of how they feel and what they believe. I think that most people understand this, but we just happen to disagree. It doesn't mean that you are severely wrong, or wrong at all, since disagreements that are l'sheim shamayim do have validity on both sides.

    FYI: It is generally the idiots who yell the loudest (usually with the most corrupted version of the story they are trying to tell), and opt to hide behind cyber anonymity when it is available.