Wednesday, November 18, 2009

Male Chauvinism amongst Orthodox Jewish boys...

A commenter on Frum Satire, "Frum Ger" left this comment on Heshy's blog during a discussion of tefillin dates and Jewish swinging...

"the more I think of it the more i wonder what business a young women has living by herself unmarried. its dangerous number one, and secondly a women should be living with family or under some sort of leadership. (not that men should necessarily live alone until they are married either but its different) women need male leaders, firsly her father, her father takes care of her and is her “man” until another comes along if there is no father then her mother takes that role, if neither than some elder in the community, needs to take care of that women."

A comment was left by Abandoning Eden, "BARF." That about sums it up.

I gotta ask him what I'm supposed to do? My parents are both dead.


  1. The Curmudgeonly Israeli Giyoret says:

    I didn't read the letter, but this sounds like a young, perhaps rather self-righteous guy who simply has not been exposed to many of the painful visissituces (sp?) of life. Some women's parents have died, some are divorced, some come from disfunctional fimily situations in which mental illness is a factor.

    Young ladies today are often without benefit of chaperone through no fault or failing of their own. Nowadays, nobody in that situuation is sent off to become a governess, like something out of the novels of the Bronte sisters. Would he rather they be sent to the work house or an orphanage? He has obviously not given this much thought, and even less compassion.

    Methinks a certain young man needs to be smacked by the Wet Fish of Real Life.

  2. I've seen and heard similar comments from women.

  3. CIG,
    Well, he's not talking about a 16 year old. He's talking about girls in their 20's who live on their own. The context was tefillin dates and the men staying over at their dates house.

    Another thing is that if men live on their own, they can bring their date home and it's still in the spirit of a tefillin date.

    It's so kind of the men to bring their tefillin. I mean, otherwise they would leave right after using the girl. This way they leave in the morning... (hahahah)

    Anyhow, I wouldn't want a guy expecting something like that from me on the first date. Even before contemplating conversion, I got sick of men only wanting that. They all had the same schtick. They would seem like they were actually interested in you and not your orafices. Then, they would call up 9:30/10... "Whatcha doin'? Let's go for drinks." I always declined. If a guy REALLY likes me, he should take me out and not call at the last minute. That is soooooooo freakin' insulting.

    You've heard women say that women shouldn't live on their own? They probably live a sheltered life and they are also repeating what men have told them. As a 34 year old single woman, who's been on my own since I was 21, I don't see myself living with some strange family. Although, when I was 21/22, I would have loved to have a family to live. Sadly, there was none available.

    Why am I on the computer when I should be on my way to work? I'm addicted!

  4. Regarding the last minute call, speaking as a guy, sometimes we end up having more free time then we thought we would have. So we then go and call up the girl we are interested. I don't think that's intrinsically an indication of the casual nature of their interest.

  5. So with women, it is a result of being sheltered, but with men it is a result of chauvanism? I'm certainly not the type of guy to say that there is no chauvanism or sexism, but I also don't appreciate a double standard. I don't think you can take all ignorant, backward statements and label them "chauvanistic".

  6. I'm sure you men won't mind. After all, men are having this double standard that women should be kept in a closet or whatever.

  7. I do mind. I think it is absurd to say that "men think that women should be kept in a closet". That is completely untrue. If there are men who believe that, this is their problem, but I do not think that it is a natural thing for men to think. That is tremendously offensive. I'm a pretty big man hater myself, but there is a place where I draw the line.

    Secondly, with regard to the phone call, I agree that it isn't a guarantee that the guy only has a casual interest, but it sure does say alot about his middos...and what it says isn't nice.

  8. Today women are more independent and financially secure more than ever. Surely there is nothing wrong with that.

    Israeli Giyoret has raised a good point. It's not as though we are living in the times of Jane Austen now are we?

    One must take into consideration that not all family 'units' are the same. Some sensitivity needs to be taken into consideration and applied accordingly.

    Michal you raised a good point. If someone was calling a woman at that time of the evening, as females how can we not wonder if the caller had some "ulterior motive"?

  9. The Curmudgeonly Israeli Giyoret says:

    "As a 34 year old single woman, who's been on my own since I was 21, I don't see myself living with some strange family."

    Hee-hee-hee...Personally, all the years I lived at home, I WAS living with "a strange family".

    "So with women, it is a result of being sheltered, but with men it is a result of chauvanism--BeeZee"

    Point taken, BeeZee, but that is basically what I, the Curmudgeonly Israeli Giyoret, said. The fellow in question sounds idealistic, but naive and probably very young. It would be ideal if all single women could live at home or with some other functioning family. New York used to have a ladies hotel called The Barbizon, which provided a respectable, chaperoned environment for the single woman. Those days are no more.

    For good or for better, that is not the situation today. Fortunate is the frum single woman who can find an apartment with a group of like-minded single female religious friends, but that can be almost as hard to find as a spouse.

    When the Wet Fish of Reality smacks us in the face, may it teach us to be wiser, more compassionate, and less judgemental. I wish that for the young man in question, and for all of us.

  10. BeeZee,
    You really seem to be saying that we women SHOULD be kept in a closet.

    If a man has more time than he thought, he should still have enough respect to ask a woman out for something other than drinks in a crowded noisy bar where they CLAIM they are going to get to know me better. Incidentally, perhaps I didn't mention this is what the men were doing before I was religious. The other thing is the way they would get downright nasty when I would tell them, "no, I have things to do tomorrow."

  11. I seem to be saying women should be kept in the closet by saying that the men who think this way have a problem and are wrong? Wow, okay, yeah... that's totally what I was saying.

  12. I'm going to echo whoever said, BARF.

  13. I love the "wet fish of reality" remark, I have to use that sometime. I also concur with the regurgitators here.